Kaiten Nage by Nishio Sensei: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8uJhC5wZug"]YouTube - Shoji Nishio Sensei Demo[/ame] He explains the relationship of the use of the sword and Kaiten Nage
Unfortunately the rules of the game rigged everything in ukes favor. And they still looked like zombies.
JWT - sorry, by DART and aikido I meant: - Aikido with DART armour.... interested/waste of time/ever tried it? Looking forward to watching some of those videos tonight, when I'm on a computer with sound. Especially the Shoji Nishio one with explanations. Didn't realise you did Ki-Aikido wolfie? How come all the uke's wait to attack? Why don't they all attack at once?
Hehe, I know exactly how that is. 2 or 3 on 1 is probably the hardest for tori, IME. When you have 8 on 1, you still can only get 2 or 3 on 1 or else all the uke start getting in each other's way. Plus now you got a camera recording the whole thing. If you ever decide to make a sequence to Dojo of the Dead, You could make Gangsters in Gis... set up your 8 on 1 with 1 or 2 uke attacking, the rest are the crowd that circle around and yell things like "put him in a body bag" (oh so Karate Kid like dialog). The crowd doesn't do anything unless you try to run away or if you get too close to one of them and turn your back to them. The crowd also carries off the downed ukes. When the ukes are downed, some of the crowd then can attack if they feel brave enough. I think wolfie mentioned he did train in Ki-Aikido at one point, but the video didn't seem at all like Ki-Aikido... some of the uke seemed to fall down a little too easily, but overall tori did a good job at unbalancing. There is one point where tori tries to take one of the uke down but fails, uke just backs away kind of like with the expression of, "oh, you didn't take me down, now what?" In Ki-Aikido, on the other hand, I would not be surprised if at that point that uke would have just thrown himself down to the ground because of some magical ki/energy ball. Obviously since that didn't happen, this isn't Ki-Aikido. Edit: After re-reading my post, I wanted to clarify that although the video could be Ki-Aikido, I find that it is not nearly as bad as the reputation given to the Ki Society. The lack of atemi and insistence on using Kokyunage in the randori was very limited, but I found it still some good training to watch. So when I say it isn't Ki-Aikido, I mean to say that it could be just considered Aikido training as along with the limitations there is some good stuff in there. And all uke don't attack at once simply because they probably were told not to. Randori isn't unlimited fighting... often it is free technique for tori, but uke's are often very limited on what they are allowed to do. Sometimes an uke might be told just to punch, or just to grab, etc. As for dart armor, sure, why not. I think, however, that the body armor would be for supplemental training, such as setting up randori so you are allowed to strike more freely. Body armor doesn't make someone invincible. The uke still will have to be able to take a good hit even with the armor on. Setting up some scenario-based training (such as in RBSD) works well with body armor. Maybe 10-20 percent of Aikido training could include this, but, IMHO, the majority of the training time should not use the body armor because I believe ukemi needs to be developed without armor. My personal bias is that the armor actually can lead to more injuries if it is used too often in the place of learning good ukemi skills. Hard to put into words my point on this.
As usual it is Wolfie or some other student who has left that has to answer when ki "aikido" is brought into question.The "teachers" always seam to be absent. Let me be blunt. Were I to attack those eight ukes they would scatter like pidgeons. They are implicit in promoting the lie so as to protect their position in the heirachy. It saddens me the number of potentialy good students who through misguided loyalty have remained with these "instructors" only to leave disillusioned. THose guys still adverise that you can face weapons and multuple attacks and survive using the power of ki. Again they have done great damage to the true art of aikido. regards koyo
I've only seen futari dori where all ukes attack. e.g. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AmXNO-m62Q"]YouTube - Shihan Mori Sensei 7th Dan - Aikido Yoshinkan 5 man jiyu-waza 07[/ame] Maybe the other one was for demonstration purposes - where ****ei was showing different techniques on different ukes. Edit: The reason why this discussion on multiple attacks is relevant, I suppose, is that it highlights the fact that there is often limited time to neutralise uke. Many of the kaiten nage clips posted in this thread are very "long winded". As a beginner, I'm not saying it is necessarily a bad thing - it's just merely my observation. Rebel Wado - thanks for the last vid you posted. What elements would you highlight as good and ones to try and aim for? Aikiwolfie - anyone posting a video of themselves on youtube is a brave man - especially since you have mentioned (here) that it's you and openly jested about it. Fair play to you - you're a braver man than me
I like that video of jiyu-waza, five on one. I like how tori keeps moving, trying to stay just one on one and he attacks the uke rather than waiting for them. Vimtoforblood, if you are looking for some good group training, try two on two, three on two, etc. I've even done six against six training. I have to admit that in the six on six I got confused and even hit people that were on my team. Anyway, the dynamic of team work and having to consider not only yourself but other friendlies is something that can be good in training. Also avoiding collateral damage (innocents) as part of training can be good. What I will say is that a group attacking can attack in many different ways. The video of them all attacking is one way that the enemy can come at you. This is more when they don't fear for their safety as much, a few will basically try to run you down so the others can catch up... you can end up on the bottom of a dog pile in such cases. On the other hand, if the enemy fears for their own safety, you are going to have not as many rush at once, you might have a few staying back as look outs and to keep you from running, etc. Then it might end up more like one of the fight scenes between the two rival gangs in the Kurosawa movie, Yojimbo. Not the fight scene between the two rival gangs I wanted to reference, but just for fun: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuAskRsP5K0"]YouTube - Yojimbo[/ame]
Rebel wado... I've just noticed something while watching the last clip you posted. Tori does two variations. In one, she projects uke in the direction she has drawn him down and turns. The other one, she steps through - taking uke in the opposite direction of that in which he is drawn down. This second variation seems less effective for some reason. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Remember that these throws are to allow for ukemi, the more severe application would be to bring uke's head into your knee while twisting their spine. Of the two variations, use the one that is more practical at the time. One variation might be better if uke is falling flat on their face due to being unbalanced, the other variation might be better if uke manages to take a step forward in an attempt to regain their balance. The fundamentals remain the same in either case. IMHO.
In the second technique uke's weight has shifted and tends to lean in a specific direction making it more effective to unbalance and throw in the manner shown. There are three kuzushi points where the attacker is unbalanced in all aikido techniques. (1) on contact (2) then control (3) the direction in which you throw or pin. (1) Contact or musubi.The instant of contact is the most important. This when a POWERFUL ACCURATE attack must be avoided,redirected or pre empted. This is also why I do not support over training in wrists grabs as "techniques". All of the dangers of musubi are absent this can lead to a false sense of effectiveness. regards koyo Wolfie you should not have stopped training you should have come to the makotokai (always welcome) even if that did not suit you I could have directed you to some good martial arts teachers.
I don't anymore. I don't really know why it was changed from all-at-once to one-at-a-time. That change happened well before I got involved. I suspect it was because most people couldn't handle the all at once scenario. Which is genuinely extremely difficult. Most people I trained with found dealing with just one attacker from a seemingly random direction difficult enough to deal with. I guess high failure rates don't build empires. If you watch the video again you'll notice it's almost always the guy behind me that gets called to attack. But back to Kaiten nage. The one in my video against the tanto. The tanto ends up way to close to me. And pointing at me. Very bad mistake. Fatal even. Highlights the need for control.
Entry and body alignment for kaiten nage.Strike to stun get off line of attack and as you say the kisaki (point) never points at you again. Musubi instant of contact.he is unbalanced. regards koyo
I agree. The atemi is crucial. My former teacher insisted the "feeling" of the atemi was enough. Even though he's an ex-boxer. I thought he was wrong then and I still think he's wrong.
Personally I have found Aikido to be a weak method of self defence unless on contact uke is either up on their toes or buckling down. Other words uke's balance must be taken. The technique applied is secondary to the taking of balance. If uke's balance hasn't been taken, then uke is being compliant if you are still managing to throw. Leading uke like a carrot in front of a donkey or crashing the line, in the main, would be external. (not Aikido) Before contact is made, you are already under uke's centre (mentally). Uke is drawn in, which means you have picked up uke's centre. On contact, uke should find that s/he is either floating up or crumbling down, and has no choice but to follow the path of least resistance.
That plus he is cut through (washed over) spun or spiraled around tori. NEVER allowed or drawn in. regards koyo
Yes that is, but from what I've seen this ability is rare. Yes, but is only truly achieved if uke's balance has been taken.
If uke's balance has NOT been taken then it is NOT aikido. Unbalancing is a fundamental principle. regards koyo
Anything where you pressure test your technique is never a waste of time. It is also a problem in aikido when uke develop this subserviant "pavlovian" response when a teacher does a technique on them. Techniques must be done honestly, otherwise the uke is lying to the teacher or training partner in keiko and is allowing others to form a false sense of security about that technique. Jita-kyoei (自他共栄 - The concept of training for one's self and others in the dojo. ) is a very important attitude in budo keiko, no matter what discipline.
