What are your thoughts on this technique? Do you use it during jiyu waza often? Do you have any decent clips of anyone using it? What entries from a shomen uchi strike do you use with this technique? Examples I have seen so far have not looked very powerful - any ideas of how to make it more powerful - or example clips?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDabHQZDIg8"]YouTube - Hitohiro Saito Shihan[/ame] heres on oldish vid of Hitohiro saito sensei. showing it from an Ki no nagare form of tai no henko. Its an amzing tech, soto or uchi. The strikes that show up and the variations are wide. I was told once taht the daito version was to strike the head down so hard that the face smashed of the floor or if you got your awase correct there face hit of your knee. Just my thing lol. So you should at least train with that feeling. strike the head down with a feeling of doing that. Its a great tech from a stright punch or grab. Also make sure when you have cut them down and controlled the head and arm that they cant keep turning and walk out the back door. make sure you turn in a way that traps them and if they do try to walk out there face meets your knee. No holes no escape
When you have cut them down and controlled the head and arm, make sure you are close to their hip. This will give you greater control of their centre.
Some good points from dentoiwamaryu and Owl. Vimtoforblood, it depends on the context of the situation how to use set up the technique. For instance, in training you might come under the arm as in the video posted, but in real world, you might not want to do this kind of move. I would also point out that the technique should be set up with atemi. Chop down on the back side of the head, as you do this, roll your hand to the back of the neck so your palm is covering the brain stem area. On both sides of the back of the neck are pressure points, use your fingers on one side and your thumb on the other side. When you activate these pressure points, people usually just crumble down and you can leverage them into the throw quite easily. Also note the ability to throw in atemi with the knee in the throw. One last point. Holding the wrist/hand, as in the way the technique is taught, is top of the lever and thus gives the most potential leverage on the throw, however, I have found it more practical to hold uke by their elbow instead of wrist/hand. It is a tighter (smaller) circle, giving uke less opportunity to counter, plus if they are taller, the elbow is still controlable whereas their hand might be a "stretch" to control.
The version shown in the video is exactly the same as one of the many variations I was shown. So far as codified techniques like that sort off kaiten nage are concerned I've never used them anywhere other than gradings and paired practice. In any sort of free form practice I would try to avoid codified techniques and improvise. I've always viewed those techniques as tools for teaching basic principles.
KAITEN means spiral so it is important that the attacker/opponent is cut off balance in two directions creating the spiral. You need not wait to be attacked. You can stride in cut the lead hand to the side and attack the face. The head is then cut/struck down unbalancing him FORWARD and the arm is thrust over his shoulder unbalancing him to the SIDE simultaneously. As for kaiten nage against shomen. I prefare a spontaneous responce and kaiten nage takes some "manipulation" to be effective against shomen. Best to unbalance him with a version of ikkyo and then attack the head and arm to execute kaiten nage. He is NOT thown in the direction he is moving his momentum is redirected over the edge of his forward foot. This assists the spiral. regrads koyo Incedently ALL aikido techniques have the element of kaiten in them. Off to training. I shall look at it tonight and post later.
In the early sixties "attack forms" were introduced into aikikai aikido. This meant there were seven or eight forms of attack and we HAD to execute all of the basic aikido techniques against them for gradings. At a National Coach Meeting I spoke out strongly against this because techniques like Kaiten nage had to performed against a chest grab and punch. This had people twisting themselves out of shape to perform an inapropriate technique. There were others. kaiten nage is best performed against a chudan attack. below the irrimi kaiten the attacking fist is cut down and the head attacked with an uraken backfist. regards koyo
The technique is executed by seising the nerves at the base of the carotid artery after the initial strike and the ELBOW thrust well over the shoulder to unbalance. The hip is then thrust through to throw the opponent AT AN ANGLE to his intial line of attack. Kaiten nage is best applied as a technique of opportunity. Perhaps you have crashed into your attacker (it happens) and he is unbalanced for a second strike his head down and seise the inside of his elbow. It is also used in kaeshe waza when you may flow from an ineffective ikkyo into kaiten nage. regards koyo
Nice posts Koyo. I actually learned the importance of elbow control when training with local law enforcement. Incidently, we were applying something like a reverse kaiten nage, where you end up on the opposite side (you end up on the side uke's back is to). I don't remember the name of this technique, I've always just called is stirring the pot but it seems it must have a more formal name. hmmmm... me wonders if you might know the name of it.
hmmmm... that's not it, but maybe all I'm thinking of is a version of Tenkan Kaiten Nage. It is kind of like this, but not so pretty [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rytovlwOVHY&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - Kaiten Nage Tenkan[/ame]
Thank you. Lots of things to think about and bear in mind. Next time I get a chance I will try to give it a go and, in particular, try to remember this: I have trawled youtube and really only found this in relation to kaiten nage from shomen uchi: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x51WHHgbdGE"]YouTube - kaiten nage[/ame] What do you think? I think it looks good. But is it too "long winded"? Nice pictures koyo - makes it easier to visualise. I have great difficulty visualising new techniques in my head without actually trying to do it with a partner. Did you also find this as a beginner?
Looking at this reminds me of how much I miss Aikido, but my left knee just couldn't take all that getting up off the ground any more.
John ... just do the throws you dont need to be thrown around anymore .. ...the clips are lovely flowing pieces of work .. most enjoyable thanks to the posters Smurf
I've tried that a few times Alan, and it never really seems to work. To know the technique, you have to feel it, and in the end few people want to practice on the partner when they are not getting the chance to do the technique fully themselves. I've been working on the knee quite a bit in the last year (the injury dates from 2002 and has had the whole MRI and consultant rigmarole) and although still painful, I think it is getting better.
See what the future hold s...as my mum says "Never say Never !!" See you at the MAP meet I am working towards being fit and on the mats again by April regards Smurf
I like the soto better, from a thrusting attack/jab to the face. Nagashi will get you off line to feed and approach the appropriate setup and then from there you will definitely use atemi to bring them down. The wind up getting from uchi to soto in the technique adds more power. No offense to anyone, but I wouldn't necessarily do kaiten nage from those attacks. Not that you would encounter much of open handed strikes anyway overhead. Even representing a held object, the real thing comes down much faster, and is difficult to guide to the correct position for the throw. EDIT: was going to be more specific, but koyo is much more direct.
Sorry guys but the last two videos do nothing at all for me. You can train for years in that "floating" manner and learn nothing of martial arts value. No real unbalancing and timid "attacks", WRIST grabs are exercises NOT attacks . regards koyo
In making the techn ique more powerfull, there are two certain directions in which to throw them in. One is to continue the circle around while directing the head down so that they are able to roll forwards. If you wanted to be more nastier in this version you would do it very quickly and face plant them to the mat. If they are clever, they would attempt to attempt to roll early and thwart your attempt. Second is to carry the arm over the body, so instead of directing with the head and arm, almost direct them exclusively with the arm across their back. This will make them barrel roll, and it's a nasty fall, no way of really rolling out of that.
