Kacem Zoughari Seminar

As some of you are aware I said that I would attend the next Kacem Zoughari seminar. In truth I had heard so much controversy about the guy with some people supporting the so called "K club" and others deriding it, that I felt that I had to attend just to see for myself.

Now as some of your are aware i've been around a bit starting in 1985 and been a member of numerous organisations, Bujinkan, Genbukan, TSD, and even trained with Fumon Tanaka and the Saito Kimbei groups.

I also train the British Army in Physical Intervention (control and restraint and self protection) and when your teaching soldiers who have returned from Afghanistan and Iraq if you teach crap they will tell you and so far our reviews have been impressive, being asked to return again and again, so to put it simply, it takes a lot to make me impressed, and it was with this mind set that I attended the Kacem Zoughari seminar in Hemel Hemstead on the 25th, unfortunately not being able to attend both days due to my wifes birthday today.

I took a couple of students with me and we arrived before the seminar started.

Starting at approximately 10:20 Mr Zoughari spoke about a few things and I must admit that it took me a time to get my ear to tune into what he was saying so didnt catch a few of his words due to his French/English, but it wasnt long before he started with the first technique and explained the patterns from Togakure Ryu.

I have attended other seminars where teachers teach and then leave you to do your own thing but Mr Zoughari made sure he got around to everyone and it seemed he spent a long time with us. Maybe he thought we were crap, :cry: who knows, but he was very generous and forthcoming if you think that getting struck repeatedly or being demonstrated on was generous LOL.

We spoke about the Togakure Ryu and he then preceeded to march off across the room only to return with the Togakure Ryu densho and then went into detailed explanation of the ryu ha, pointing out various parts and their meaning although NOT YET being able to speak and read Japanese I could have been looking at a Chinese Dim Sum menu but Kacem seemed to be able to point out certain things and there were certain kanji that I recognised as he pointed them out.

Over the day Mr Zoughari spent a lot of time on showing Hachimonji no kamae and how to make it work and the importance of kamae taking it up as a technique and NOT just a defensive stance that i see so many others teach. He also concentrated on what he called moving from a straight line, and showed a very interesting way of moving from Fudoza no kamae even when your opponent has your front foot pinned. He even mentioned some things to us in regard to the Densho that now make a lot more sense but i'm going to keep them off the forum as he spoke to us personally about this, and feel its only fair that as he spoke to us one to one that I shouldnt share the points he made here.

There has been a lot of discussion regarding Gyokko Ryu Tojutsu and what I was shown (yes he demonstrated it to us and gave their names), and it seems like Mr Zoughari doesnt have a problem with the issue of "Burden Of Proof" (like some people on here) and I even said to him face to face as a historian that he has to realise that any burden of proof has to lie with him in this regard. Again i'm going to keep this off this forum about my feelings about what he told me and the background of the tojutsu and its part in the densho, and how many patterns there were and the order of the scrolls, but enough to say that what he showed (and named) was very different from the taking of the Gyokko ryu Kata and just doing them with a sword. In short they didnt look like henka to me.

The question is of course "was I impressed"?

As I say i've been around a bit and met my fair share of 15th dans and below, and my experience of them and their skill has been very mixed and i'm not going to get into a character assasination here, but I will say that in the Bujinkan there are probably only 3- 4 western people I would attend seminars with.

In some ways Mr Zoughari reminded me of Stephen K Hayes and I dont mean that his style was similar or even the same, but like Stephen he puts his money where his mouth is. Many people can talk a good technique when they know whats coming and which side its coming from, but when some one says "OK throw a punch at me" and you step back in an ichimonji to let loose a punch and he then says "No from Shizen" and gets you to stand only a foot or so away from him and then says "Now throw the punch without telegraphing" and he still catches you, then you tend to feel that this guy can talk the talk and walk the walk, which unfortunately is lacking in so many. Sorry I said that but its so true.

And of course this guy is only a 4th dan which kind of goes completely against the adage that "rank is not an indicator of skill". i'm sorry guys but in this case it really is an indicator of skill, which kind of questions why we have so many people who are graded much higher yet can't perform Kihon.:jawdrop:

I've always said that "Rank is not an indicator of skill in the Bujinkan, until you wish to promote yourself to teach a seminar or your classes" or as a way of promoting yourself against a person of lesser rank, whose more skill and experienced than you in using the art in REAL situations.

I'd also like to point out that the guys I took with me, one a Bujinkan black belt who has trained under a few people in th this country and the USA and I might add been asked by at least two 15th dans to be their branch instructor and declined, and another who has trained 15 plus years and attended a fair few seminars and classes with others was equally impressed and made for much talk in the car on the way home.

Anyway thats my quick write up and now I have to make birthday girl dinner.

And can I say a big thankyou to Sandy Marwick and Bruce (assistant instructor) for making us feel so welcome, and to Mr kacem Zoughari for spending so much time with us answering questions and demonstrating. Now all I have to do is convince my wife to have a family holiday in Paris in June.


:star::star::star::star::star:

Gary Arthur

PS Dra UK thanks for the tea

 

Thank you for taking the time to write you report Gary, nice of you to do so.

Just minor question from me, I was told that Kacem had taken the Godan test (poss. in 2010/2011?) in Japan and should now be Godan or above. Can anyone on here confirm/deny this please?
Please don't think I'm having a dig at Kacem, just be nice to know.

Dave.

 

He passed the godan test, yes. But he still refers to himself as a fourth dan, for various reasons

 

Yes, sorry got told that yesterday

 

Yes great seminar. Some interesting historical info too.

Oww my wrists hurt from Sunday's training.

Cold cider may be the cure....if I can just find a straw...

Good training!

 

Yes, Kacem passed his Godan test (administered by Arnaud Cousergue) - it was in 2009, I believe.

 

Thanks guy's. I did hear from a friend that was there when he was told he would be taking the test that night that he had passed.
I kind of understand where he is coming from with regard to still thinking of/calling his self a Yondan, as I don't still think of myself as my current grade. Still lots of things to work on

 

Yeah, that kinda bugs me. A grade is objective- you either are xdan or you are not. Lying about it is annoying. Either refuse to answer, or tell the truth. But don't lie.

Whether you're worthy of your grade or not is beside the point. OK, that's just my little gripe.

Thanks for the write up, Garth. It seems you had a good time and it was big of you to show up here and say so.

 

And perhaps you don't know the all the details of the situation.

Passing the sakki test in honbu doesn't necessarily mean that you have godan. Not until you have the diploma in your hand, at least.

 

Royal Mail gave me mine.

 

Passing the sakki test is the promotion to godan. The paperwork is a formality.

And believe it or not, I know a fair bit about the details of the situation.

It's not the end of the world. I'm not anti-Kacem. It's just a pet peeve of mine.

 

Being offered a grade and paying for it are two different things IMO.

Anyway, if anyone is interested the best bet is to ask Kacem himself.

 

I'd agree, I have done this several times, its about plausible deniability. Bit tricky when it comes to the Godan test though...

Little ripples on the surface, such as having Arnaud do the test as the famous Frenchie do imply that there is more that meets the eye with things though...

I do enjoy a good Japanese melodrama.

 

Yep but it's pretty easy up to fifth Dan isn't it?

Very easy in Japan, just nod and thank, nod and thank, but don't chase up the paperwork or pay for anything.

Bit trickier with your own teacher, but can be done.

I think a lot of people play on the 'oh what was I supposed to say, No?' routine, when they really can't get the money over quick enough.

I wonder how such people ( crap megadan) feel when they meet a kick **** yondan like dr k.

 

Am I mistaken that only the Soke can preform the test in Togakure Ryu? Perhaps he is waiting for Hatsumi to test him.

 

I think some of the comments have been confirming what I have been saying for years, in that as Hatsie said "Pretty easy up to fifth dan isnt it"

Now I absolutely appreciate that Dr Hatsumi has his own reasons for grading people.

Because they have shown a commitment, because they have done something for the Bujinkan, Because they write a book, because they have military experience etc, and that is of course his decision as he is "The Bujinkan"

I know of at least one person who only spend about 2 years in Bujinkan and got to 9th dan, and Dr Zoughari said to me that he knows of people getting even higher in less time.

Its also said that rank is NOT an indicator of skill and if rank is given out on the basis the above criteria i.e. because of other reasons besides your skill, then thats fine....

"AS LONG AS OTHER PEOPLE KNOW THAT"

Where the problem comes for me is how people use their rank as an indicator of their skill and sell themselves on the back of that, when their rank is actualy "NOT AN INDICATOR OF SKILL" especially when you are selling yourself to punters that dont know that "rank is not an indicator of skill" i.e websites, posters etc aimed at getting new students in to the class.

Talking candidly here, the reason that I kind of went a seperate way from the Bujinkan for much of my time was because in 1987 I took a few studenst down to the Doron Navon seminar in Brighton. The students I took with me were seasoned martial artists and if I remember correctly one was even judoka that was training for a chance in the olympic team.

When we got down to the seminar, and please remember that up till this time I had been telling my students that "Bujinkan and Ninjutsu (As it was called then) was the best martial art in the world. Now there were no DVDs or even videos of the art back then so my students had no chance to look at anything prior to them attending the event so they had turned up with the aim of seeing some of the top people. After an hour or so's training we took a break and I remember one of the students say something to me like "So that black belt (I'll withold names here), he couldn't roll, he kept banging his head on the mat and Doron kept having to correct him, whats all that about"

To be honest I felt slightly embaressed, and had no answer and I certainly didn't know that "Rank was not an indicator of skill" as this was 1987.

And similar events unfolded at latter dates and had in fact had earlier but I guess because I was enamoured by the art I put them to the back of my mind. I carried on training and IIRC got some rank in Bujinkan 8th or 7th kyu and then when my instructor (Peter Brown who was very well respected at the time in the Bujinkan) joined the Genbukan I went with him.

I know that to a lot of you it seems like I have bummed around in the martial arts, not sticking to one teacher or one organisation and I guess honestly its because I hadn't yet found what I wanted and the ugly head of poltics and back biting, and empire building always seemed to raise its ugly head as well (And still does as recently as two yars ago)

BUT in some ways for me to do so has been good and has enabled my growth in these martial arts in a way that has allowed me to take things from so many sources, and i'll state for the record that if people don't think I can't cut it when it matters then you are sadly mistaken, having had to use what I have learnt, and continue to do so on many occasions. Whether what I do and the way I move is what the people in the Bujinkan will say is correct is another matter, after all there is a Bujinkan, way, Genbukan way, TSD way, and of course much variation in between, between different teachers. Which is correct and which is incorrect is purely academic UNTIL its used in the real world.

As I said before many people can talk the talk and get their compliant uke to throw a known type of attack in a known way from a known position and side and then only to have ukes arm hang there in the air whilst tori performs some dazzling technique with the aid of his uke who is willing to take a dive for his teacher. O boy how many times have I seen this.

Now of course there is a point in training where you have to go, as to resist will get you hurt and it is only training, but as said in my previous post when training the army if you perform a technique and they can see an opening they will have you, and they don't like civilians putting them to the deck in front of their platoon so I have an indication of what I can do in the real world, and even if training the army is not the REAL world then theres always my police experience and years of security and CP work.

And I apologise if that seems like bragging, as its not meant to be, but just pointing out (Based on my real life experience) that again and again I see techniques that will not work in the real world (I'll repeat that) "WILL NOT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD" and are there purely to impress the students who know no better, or from a teacher that does not understand what happens in the real world. his in my opinion is very dfangerous but thats another thread.

Of course there are teachers that are not bothered about the real world and are doing this because they have an interest in tradition, but even then there should be real world reality, or as Mr zoughari stated "In the scroll (Densho) it does not say Partner, uke, its says "ENEMY", and if you think some of the things you see are ways that trained samurai could be controlled and defeated then again you are seeing history through rose tinted spectacles.

OK sorry i'm harping on, but for me there is a feeling one gets when you know that someone has a skill that is beyond the norm (No pun intended), and are in touch with some real world quality that you just know that what they teach works and is something I have felt a few times in my life from various people.

Maybe its similar to what Hatsumi described whan he met Takamatsu, a feeling of "This guy can walk the walk".

This is why I have kind of stayed away from the Bujinkan and probably been one of its biggest critics (SORRY GUYS) as so many have these high fuluting (Is that how you spell it?) grades but can't perforn and will quite happily say "Rank is not an indicator of skill" until they wish to sell themselves.

I remember a friend of mine, my ex instructor actually Peter Brown when we were at a Bujinkan seminar taught by Hatsumi and Peter only holding 4th dan, and after the 5th dans were given out, a bujinkan instructor approaching him and saying...

"Pete you must be embarrassed as these guys are much higher graded than you and you are so much beter than them" to which Peter replied "Its them that should be embarrased for holding a higher grade than me but not be as good as me"

Take a look guys at Kacem, he ony refers to him as a 4th dan, I just wonder who feels embarrased.

 

I agree with this post, of course, and who wouldn't, but I just have to ask.

In 1987 you had students but had not reached 7th kyu? Or did you mean to write 'fellow students'?

 

Benkyoka posted

Nicely spoted, but it was 7:30 in the morning when I posted this and I was trying to get kids ready for school.

But to put this into perspective. This was 1987 and there were few schools around and as we were in Northamptonshire (Nearest Dojo in London 80 miles away) and I didn't drive I pretty much travelled to seminars but visited my teacher in Brighton several times a year often staying for a week at a time or inviting him up. Remember that at the time Peter Brown was a very respected man in the Bujinkan and had trained with Bo Munthe in Sweden and was possibly one of the first in the UK to receive training in the art, and was a good friend of Doron Navon and organiser of said seminar.

I guess the students saw me as their instructor purely because it grew from a few of us training in a guys spare room, (My girlfriend, her brother, a karate black belt and a good friend and me) to a karate club when his wife got fed up wth us. and because I had been on more seminars than the rest they saw me as teacher or at least xpected me to run th class..

Don't get me wrong I never wanted to teach and as the club grew my bowels suffered terribly prior to each class because I knew I was pretty much in the dark and teaching from little knowldge (yes I know nothing changes).

So yes use the word Student in the loosest fashion (much like my bowel movemets before class), and even today (I think I put it in a previous post) they are my fellow students, or even class mates.

 

Garth,

Seems like you had a nice seminar. Cant wait until we get him over to Stockholm.

Dont want to sound like a "wise guy" but I hope you now understand why I (and others like BigWill) pushed you to meet/see Mr Zoughari in person.

Btw, did you get an opportunity to ask historical questions? Did you change your perspective on Toujutsu for example?

Regards / Skuggvarg