Judo Problem

Hi Judo people!

I've now been talking Judo for about 5 weeks now and generally I'm enjoying the classes, however something about them is still bothering me:

As those of you who read my previous thread will know, I'm in a class almost completely made up of black belts, which is a little daunting but is now something I've got used to.

However, the problem I have is this: So far, I haven't actually been taught anything 'formally' yet. No one has taking me off to one side and said 'o.k, here's throw X, let me take you though it bit by bit', the training is more like 'here's throw X you all know it already, Neil, you pick it up as you go along'.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've no problem with this style of teaching, I find sometimes learning this way can really help, since you tend to throw yourself (pardon the pun) into the technique a bit more, however after six or so weeks of 'Neil you just catch up' it's starting to become a bit of a drag. Furthermore, while talking to a mate of mine, who's a seasoned Jujitsu bloke, I mentioned I hadn't actually learnt to breakfall yet, after which he advised me to find another club.

Should I stay the course? It may be all moot anyway since some pretty dramatic upheavals in my life at the moment mean I might be moving away.

Any advice would be apprieciated, cheers.

 

Well it is strange that they haven't taught you to break fall properly. That is definitely a must.

As far as not formally teaching you throws. That is strange as well, you should ask a black belt to show you some throws. Currently I only use about 3-4 different throws with varying grips. I picked them up after picking up pointers while doing randori with the other black belts. I'm sill a white belt in a class full of black belts so I usually get my but kicked but it's nice when you can get a throw in off a combo
=].

 

Just out of interest is the club BJA or BJC? Or even something completely different? The two associations mentioned have sort of different approaches to how they do things.

powchoy

 

What are they teaching you? Definitely should be doing all the breakfalls and from the first class too. Find another Judo school. The blackbelts aren't interested in teaching a newbie. My advice would be stick with Judo though, a great style.

 

Well, the breakfalls seem to be something practised a bit as part of the warm up at the start of the class, and the first time I went through them, somebody took me through how to do each one quickily but after that I was just left to get on with it.

When going through throws and randori, it depends on who I'm paired up with, there are a couple of people there who are great and give me excellent advice, but a lot of the guys there just seem to want to move on so they be partnered with someone of the same level rather than be lumbered with me.

I realise with a class largely aimed at the black belt majority there's no reason the whole lesson should be slowed down on my behalf, but I do wonder whether the whole 'picking-it-up-as-you-go' style of training will actually work in the long run. Can you learn judo like this, or do you need a strong grounding in the basics before you can move on?

The club is BJA, and just to reiterate the classes are enjoyable and I the impression I got from another newbie (who had a judo black belt from another club) was that the classes were brilliant for higher level students but perhaps not for me.

 

I haven't trained specifically in Judo for a long time, but we do work Judo techniques in my current style.

What you describe here sounds like pretty haphazard training. You should first be formally trained as a beginner by an instructor who will take the time to get your basics cemented. Then you may be ready, after some time, to do randori and other work with the rest.

If I were you, I would take this up with an actual instructor before or after class not just a black belt student. If you continue to train like this you will develop some bad habits over time due to the gaps in your beginning training.

Telling you to "just catch up" is very irresponsible.

 

I would say that breakfalling is an essential skill to learn PRIOR to being thrown. Obviously we have only your perspective here, but ultimately that is what is important to you.

In general I'd be happy to have a student work with a senior grade, and learn to throw the senior grade, but I wouldn't be happy to have a novice be thrown without some formal introduction. It sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Personally I have never trained at a BJA / BJC or other clubs where they haven't taken great care with their 'newbies'

I would suggest talking to your instructor as he may assume that you are OK, or (hopefully) he's been paying attention and sees that you are competent, if that fails to produce an improvement / reassurance, then vote with your feet and find another club - there are plenty around.

 

I'm amazed - I'd say the instructor is putting you at risk of injury and himself at risk of an insurance claim or lawsuit.

I suppose that they (and you) do have appropriate martial arts insurance?

Doesn't sound like a good place for a beginner to train at all.

 

Get taught to breakfall buddy. Even if it means finding a different school...

 

I never thought of this as an issue seeing as i was thrown into randori with the Judo blackbelts, but only after i learned to break fall. Forward roll, backwards over a shoulder, right roll, etc. The only class that spent time teaching me the "mechanics" of a throw was in the Kodenkan Ju Jitsu class, and thats the class that focuses more on groundwork.

What i realized is that you can't spend to much time focusing on a throw, because in randori you only have a split second to break balance, get into position and complete your throw. It won't always be pretty, but when you make those attempts usually the Instructor or the other person will tell you what you did wrong.

Edit: Though there have been times that i have felt that the Judo class is more geared towards advanced students. Most nights im only able to get a couple clean throws in, and thats after 5-8 rounds.

 

Right, unfortunately for the OP this thread is suffering from a bit of 'MAP-crap'. 'MAP-crap' is where you have people who don't know anything about the topic but think they do, in this case it is adult practitioners who've never 'really' trained Judo in an adult class. If this statement offends you, then it's probably aimed at you.

Some facts about Judo in the UK. The bulk of ACTIVE Judoka are under the age of 16. This means that the bulk of amateur classes (i.e, not national squad level) are aimed at this age group. Due to the nature of 'growing up', this means that by the time most of the juniors enter the adult training classes they are already Brown belts.

Not many 'older' adults start Judo as complete beginners. This means that not many people over the age of 21 start Judo. This means that there is normally very little focus on beginners in adult classes.

Now... the larger clubs (and we're talking HUGE clubs) sometimes have beginners classes for adults, and sometimes the medium sized clubs will have 'recruitment drives' for their adult classes and put on a 6 week beginners course.

University clubs tend to be a good entry level for adults, due to the nature of university sports and the varying level of ability. Though you will tend to find that, with some exceptions (Glasgow Uni club springs to mind) good level players will avoid Uni clubs because of the 'low level' of skilled players.

Also, Judo has a high level of 'drop out' for beginning adults (that's a seperate debate). Therefore the club coach may not want to invest (read waste) much time on a 'new beginner', once they've been coming regularly for a couple of months then the coach may decide they are worth the investment.

Now to the OPs situation. You've said you're a beginner in a mostly BB class. Most basics (breakfalling) will be worked in the warm up, if you feel you need some more work on this ask the lead coach if he (or someone else) is able to take you aside and work on it.

With regards to 'techniques', I can't believe that you aren't doing any. I imagine that at this level of class the coach is either showing 'competition variations' of throws, or working throws from specific 'competition grips'. So I think you are getting 'technique', though maybe not accessible for you in randori yet.

So... ask someone (the coach, an assistant coach) to show you the basic throws.

A pet rant about breakfalls.... many of the guys here commenting are JuJitsuka. There is a big difference in emphasis in breakfalling between Ju Jitsu and Judo (I speak as a Sensei in one and a Brown belt in the other).

Gotta scoot, fatherly duties call... to be continued...

 

Mapcrap?

Haha. Not everyone is a amateur in these forums. I'm a blackbelt in Judo and TKD. and have been training for over 25 years. Mapcrap, that's just a insult to people who do have some hard earned knowledge.

 

Hi 'Freeform'

There are two issues

1) Any instructor is liable for the safety of his students both legally and morally - if you push someone too far or do not train them properly so that they can deal with the drills and exercises that you ask them to practice you are being negligent.

2) If you are taking money from a student then you should be teaching them - just throwing a beginner in with the rest is possibly fine for a lesson two - to see if they like the general art you are practicing but then they should start to get taught.

Otherwise you are not running a martial arts class you are running a 'fight club' - there is nothing wrong with the latter (the Uni I attended had an informal martial arts club that was something of the sort) but that is not (as far as I can tell) what the OP expected.

I am going with my original analysis of poor instruction.

BTW some years ago I went to a few judo lessons (as an adult) and I was TAUGHT

 

I've seen both methods in more than just judo. I'm with Freeform on this one, high student turnover in something that most people out there aren't going to stick at because it has serious contact means that you weed out the ones that won't/can't be any good from the start. You might lose a few that way but the guys who want it enough stick around, take the knocks and ask questions.
Much of the safety issues are probably already being addressed by the B/B's throwing the beginner. What seems like full contact in the first couple of weeks may in fact just a very controlled lesson in itself. Grown-ups are expected to ask questions (not too many)

 

This is a bit tricky. On one hand it sounds like they need to explain things more, but on the other hand I also think you need to be asking more questions. If you are stuck or don't understand something it's very hard generally for someone to know. For example as a newbie if I look at your technique realistically speaking it's probably not going to be great. But it's hard to tell whether your poor technique is due to being new and you just need more practice, or due to you not understanding the throw properly at all.

If you have been taken aside and shown breakfalling and if it's covered in the warmup every lesson than I say that's good enough. If you feel you need more practice or training on this, then you should speak up.

Don't be afraid to ask people to slow things down so you can breakfall out of them easier or to better understand the technique.

But to add to what has already been said... a lot of those black belts would have trained together for a long time. And have been experienced Judoka for a while - even if they trained at other clubs before this one. And following on from what Freeform has said, they probably haven't trained a lot with adult beginners much.

Now if you take a class with varied experience level in the students what you will find is that the more experienced students will mentor and teach the less experienced ones. The larger the experience gap, generally the more mentoring goes on. This happens whether it's a formalised arrangement (e.g. sempai/kohei) or not. So simply, the other students are not used to mentoring and teaching those will less experience. And that is really something that they should be learning and doing with you but aren’t – but keep in mind they have never had to do it before.

I’d start by asking the other students more questions about the technique you are doing. Stuff like “I haven’t done this throw before, can you break it down for me please?”. Or even simpler “should my arm go here, or here?”.

 

I've got to agree with the ask more questions approach. I'm always bugging my training partners for tips. Also try and get a mate to come along so you can get fairer randori.

Also, by choosing judo you're practicing the art with probably the most information about it and it's techniques available. If you want to improve quickly then do some research. Watch YouTube videos by ptnippon and then go back on the mat and work on the finer details. You can also find a throw you like and buy the masterclass book on it. Ask the instructor which variations would suit your body type.

I did all these things and improved greatly from them.

If dan grade players consider your club to be great then I'd stick around as it will benefit your judo in the long run.

 

Actually I train both Kodenkan Jujitsu and Judo for quite some time now. Both at the same club and was going 2-3 times a week. I think that is enough to show my "dedication" to learning the art, ignoring the fact that I'm paying
90 a month to attend and 5 dollar mat fee's anytime I want to train on a Saturday morning. Broke my toe, injured my shoulder, having my elbow hyperextended several times. Yea I played through the pain like any other regular judoka. If thats really how its normally run thanks for putting it in perspective though. The OPs post has really made me think of how the school was working out for me. I never thought o question the methods but now I really do feel like I've wasted my time. It's ok though I'm making the transition to MMA, and have started with Muay Thai and no-Gi grappling.

 

The rather rude introduction to your post notwithstanding, that's very good point, I didn't really think about the judo 'demographics' as it were.

That's interesting, could you explain what the differences are?

That's sort of the problem, when I ask whether I have performed a throw or other technique correctly, the instructor or a few of the black belt students will give some good advice, but most of the guys in the class just say something along the lines of "erm...yeah...that'll do...I guess". It just doesn't feel like they're used to teaching, fair enough since teaching's not their job.

Anyways I'm going to have a look around at some other clubs just so I can estabish some sort of prespective on classes in general.

 

No, that was a statement aimed at people who have no knowledge but think they are qualified to provide advice. Re-read it, I stand by the comment that if you find it offensive then it's aimed at you.

Hi 'robertmap'

True. ALL BJA/BJC Judo coaches are actually qualified sports coaches under JudoScotland, England, etc and therefore fall under the coaching requirements of SportsScotland, England, etc. Therefore, they have been trained to coach people within a tight and rigourous framework (which I would point out that this isn't the case in many of the MAs out there).

These coaches in general (you always get some 'bad eggs') aren't going to do anything dangerous. Experienced Judoka are not going to 'bounce' newbies to boost their ego (of course there are always exceptions). Judo is a full contact sport, you will get hurt in most randori sessions, you may get injured in randori sessions, this is something you sign up to and accept when you join the governing bodies and receive your insurance.

Most Judo coaches don't get paid and are actually subsidising the clubs that they run. The coaches that do get paid don't normally get paid enough to even cover their insurance/competition fuel costs/coaches courses/etc.

As most clubs have limited numbers in their adult classes the same material is usually taught to the whole club. As Judo is more performance related than belt related this generally is a better model. In my experience as players move up the belts as an adult, the coach/assistants will ensure that they are taught the theory that they need for their next theory exam.

I should point out that I disagree with a lot of the major coaching models used in Judo, but on a performance development point of view. This is one of the reasons I'm hoping to pass my coach level 2 in the next two years so I can have my own club and try out some models I've learned in Kali and BJJ.

Absolutely. If you're training in a class of BBs then they pretty much know that in the context of Judo they can kick a White Belts ass, nothing to prove. What they are most likely doing is taking the super easy throws that are being presented by poor posture. And, as Moi said, they are probably even protecting you from the throw, I know when I do things like O soto gari, tani otoshi or O goshi I can normally protect a noob.

I still do this. I'm lucky enough to have a couple of squad players train fairly regularly at our club, they're great sources of information.

Great idea!

Absolutely. Quality clubs can be hard to find and BBs will flock to them.

In the Jiu Jitsu arts, the ukemi is seen as a form of valuable training to. To survive being thrown and continue to be able to fight is an important skill. Also with techniques such as 'throws' involving standing armlocks and wristlocks the ability of uke to be able to somersault allows tori/nage to execute the technique with power. The idea most forget here is that it isn't a 'throw' but a limb destruction that can only be practiced with power/intent if uke 'throws himself' to avoid the break.

Judo (competitive, a lot of the standing breaks are retained in kata) lacks these standing breaks and therefore doesn't require the 'throwing myself through the air' ukemi of many of the Jitsu/Aiki arts. Also, the bulk of 'good' ukemi from Judo style throws would have you land on your back, thus giving tori/nage his Ippon. In a competitive POV this is bad.

Therefore the attitude in Judo is to NOT land on your back in randori (technical practice is different, though most clubs now use crash mats which renders the point moot). This leads to BAD ukemi, such as putting out straight arms, trying to turn in mid-throw to land on your front, falling onto your knees, etc.

So whilst most Judoka can do 'good' ukemi in technical practice, what they tend to be drilling in randori can be a bit dangerous (though 'better' from a competitive POV).

Hope tha makes sense (ask questions if it doesn't ).