Judo compatibility with other arts in 2016

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Prizewriter, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I didn't want to hijack another thread relating to cross training BJJ and Judo so I'm making a new one as it got me thinking.

    Rhadi Ferguson, a former US Judo Champion and Olympian, BJJ black belt and professional MMA fighter was asked about his opinion on 2012 Olympic champion Kayla Harrison entering MMA the way Ronda Rousey did. He said he thought it was a bad idea as Judo had changed so much since Ronda turned pro. He went on to say that in Ronda's era, she was use to people shooting in on her and having to defend attacks like double legs (morote gari) in Judo competition. Kayla hasn't had to deal with that, so it would be a lot harder for her to transition to MMA.

    In gi BJJ, breaking grips is an important part of the game. in Judo in 2016, grip breaking is no longer allowed if I understand correctly.

    The IJF have also recently stated that it's athletes are not allowed to enter other combat sports.

    It might be far fetched to suggest the IJF changed Judo rules to make it harder for Judoka to cross train other combat sports, but it does seem that Judo is increasingly going down the road of becoming incompatible with other combat sports. Where once Judo may have been an obvious option for a BJJ player wanting to train stand up, Sambo or Wrestling might be more appealing. I know of one international Judo player who actually started off doing BJJ, then cross trained Judo, then became an elite Judo player who competed internationally. I just couldn't see that happening in 2016 because of the way Judo is now.

    Any thoughts?
  2. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    the advantage of learning judo opposed to wrestling and sambo (in the UK) is the wide spread high quality of coaching, the excellent instructor courses and good training structure as well as kids programs.

    All of this leads to a high drop out rate from high level judo so we now have plenty of really good judoka wanting to compete but cant make it to the top level of judo so they transition to other combat sports.
    I dont think the rule changes have all that much of an effect on a judoka's prospects in MMA as a base art - if he wants to go into MMA he'll have to cross train at an MMA gym.

    frankly the factional nature of bjj makes its difficult to compete with judo organisations in providing the same quality of teaching (frankly Judo coaches are better equipped for teaching in the UK because they not only have a blackbelt but a very thorough government accredited training course)

    and wrestling and sambo arent nearly wide spread enough in the UK but every little town and village has really good and cheap judo

    for years to come, judo will churn out young kids with basic grappling skills that will easily make the transition to MMA
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  3. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    My local bjj club http://bjjlifestyleteam.com/ has a judo guy teaching "judo for BJJ" very nice guy, good teacher and a commonwealth judo champion.

    As for how well does judo fit in with other arts. Different arts have differing degrees of overlap. The kung fu that I practice has both standing and floor grappling, so bjj and judo overlap a lot. Other arts such as win chung maybe not so much. Even when they don't overlap judo may compliment other arts nicly. When it comes down to it a fight is a fight and grappling is grappling.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  4. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Find instructors who have been teaching since before the IJF implemented the stupid rules, they will still be able to coach moves suitable to BJJ which would no be illegal in Judo.
  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Crazy thing - almost everything ive learnt about half-guard was from a two 60 year old judo coaches and a judo black belt who looked like tom selleck
  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    In my opinion once you get to a high level of athletic ability technique becomes less of a limiting factor. Fighting under a different rule-set will require different techniques but high level athletes are good at learning new techniques.

    The question is whether the new rule-set requires significantly different skills and abilities.
  7. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Not to be a dick, but have you trained Judo in lots of clubs in the UK? While I've seen extremely good coaching, I'd be very, very loathe to claim it there was a universally high standard.
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I wouldn't say they are a universally high standard but there is a very good minimum standard compared to BJJ e.g.

    - BJJ white belts, gracie garage or basically anyone can run a BJJ club. theres usually no club insurance for members and no requirement for safeguarding or first aid courses.
    - Judo black belts are the only ones allowed to be level 2 instructors (whichc means they have competed IIRC due to the judo belt point system) and there are a bunch of other qualifications they require to be instructors (safe guarding etc)
    - Judo clubs have instructor courses specialized towards teaching children, child development and self defence specifics (again all accredited through 3rd parties)

    Wrestling, TKD, Boxing etc in the UK also has the same standards (due to it being an olympic sport, coaches are usually UKCC qualified)

    For reference:

    Also the Judo coaching courses lead to an MSc in Sport coaching and performance specialising in Judo.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Harder, but not impossible. Her real problem is that there isn't a UFC or Invicta division for her to enter into.

    What does grip breaking have to do with MMA?
    I don't like this rule, but it's not actually unusual in professional sports. And it's not a new rule, they just reiterated it because a lot of national federations weren't enforcing it.
    The IJF changed the rules to make Judo a better spectator sport - it has worked. There may have been a secondary aspect to stop the influx of eastern european wrestlers showing up in a black belt they earned in a weekend and double legging their way through tournaments, but the primary motivation was to protect Judo's spot in the Olympics.
    The reason Ronda dominated for so long was because she came from a sport with incredible depth in the women's game. No other combat sport has the professionalism of Judo (ignoring the fact that there is no money in Judo) or the competitiveness at the elite levels. Not boxing, not BJJ, not wrestling.

    Harrison would be amazing at MMA because she is an incredibly powerful, skillful and dedicated athlete. She has all the attributes of Rousey (and more).

    If she switches, she'll be a force to be reckoned with.
  10. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    grip breaking won't be allowed in 2016 any longer? how would that work?
  11. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    In relation to the above I merely meant that for a BJJ athlete who competes in Gi, grip breaking/controlling skills might be an advantage. Seeing as this has been banned under Judo rules, Judo could be seen as a less favourable system for cross-training for a competitive BJJ athlete.

    The thread wasn't specific to the relationship between Judo and MMA, more Judo and other combat sports with grappling elements (of which MMA is one).
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    a) The course is ok, but its not that good
    b) A brand new BJA Judo Blackbelt is good, but its only the same as a decent BJJ bluebelt really.
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Grip breaking isnt banned, 2 on 1 grip breaking is banned in competition, plenty of rec players still use it all the time in randori,
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Rules related to grips are primarily motivated by the desire to avoid stalling, to avoid providing undue advantage, or to reduce the chance of injury.

    Deliberately avoiding gripping is not permitted.[9]
    In a standing position, it is not permitted to take any grip other than a "normal" grip for more than three to five seconds without attacking. A "normal" grip is one where the right hand grips some part of the left hand side of the opponent's jacket (and the left hand grips some part of the right hand side of the opponent's jacket.) A non-normal grip may involve grabbing the belt, or the trousers, or the wrong side of the jacket.[10] (A non-"standard" grip is one that does not involve the traditional sleeve/collar grip. There are no time-limits related to non-"standard" grips as long as they are not non-"normal".)
    A "pistol grip" on the opponent's sleeve is not permitted.[11]
    It is not permitted to insert the fingers inside the opponent's sleeve opening or trousers opening at any time. You are permitted to insert your fingers inside your own gi openings.
    Biting the opponent's gi is prohibited, as it grants another gripping point.
    Since 2010, it is not permitted to grab the legs or trousers, initially, during tachi-waza. As of the 9th of February 2013 it is no longer permissible to touch the legs of the opponent whatsoever during tachi-waza.[citation needed] Furthermore, is no longer permissible to break an opponent's grip with two hands.
  15. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    To be fair, the gripping skills I've seen in BJJ are so poor, I'd still put money on the Judo guy to dominate any gripping exchange.

    Judoka still know how to break grips, they just aren't allowed to do them with two hands anymore - I'd argue it makes you better at grip breaking, because you need to do it technically, without relying on brute force and it keeps you in an attacking mode (which is why the rule was introduced in the first place).
  16. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I think the banning of wrestling takedowns is weak as hell. Something is working really well and we're getting our butts handed to us? Let's ban it instead of increasing the capabilities of our students and teaching them to use and defend against it. I think that attitude is what makes judo less viable for cross training than it could be, should be, or was.

    Masahiko Kimura is spinning in his grave.
  17. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It may have worked well but it made the Judo in Beijing really really boring to watch - precisely because people were really good at defending against those attacks. The IOC threatened to cut Judo if changes weren't made, so changes were made. Judo is a much more fun sport to watch now as a result and its place in the Olympics seems safe.
  18. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Well forgive me for not leaping for joy. The question was about Judo's effectiveness and compatibility with other arts. People tend to find BJJ boring to watch but it's effectiveness and compatibility with other arts doesn't need debate.
  19. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It's about different priorities. The IJF believed (probably correctly) that Judo's continued participation in the Olympics was vital if it was to maintain participation numbers and retain its funding. They took action to protect that status.

    They were right - there are bodies in almost every country that practice 'freestyle judo', yet they are all microscopic in comparison to IJF affiliated federations.
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Which is fine if what you care about is spread and funding. But when you're talking about capability (which we are here) banning techniques just because you're getting thumped by wrestlers and stalling a bit makes you less technically competent and less compatible with freestyle fighting and grappling.

    I mean I'm sure BJJ could get more screen time and maybe make it into the Olympics if they added arbitrary rules to speed up matches, add more movement, and eliminate spots where people stall but it would be detrimental to the efficacy of the art in and out of grappling and that's what we're talking about with Judo.

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