Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by mhyst, Feb 12, 2005.
Awesome! Incidentally you started jujutsu at about the same time in your life as I did.
Hello fellow Jujutsuka's!
I used to be an active mapper years ago, but life's circumstances caused me to stop practicing martial arts for a while. When I moved to a different town I suddenly had several schools to choose from and I chose to pick up Jujutsu! Been practicing for about 2 years now (recently awarded w/ 3rd kyu)
The sensei is great, he focusses on practical application and always includes real world scenarios into his lessons. He also teaches Karate-Jitsu, which I started participating in since about half a year (recently awarded w/ 5th kyu).
Looking forward to share and discuss experiences with you guys!
Good to have you back onboard.
^^ What he said. Welcome back. I haven't technically practiced jujitsu for a long time, but I've always had a soft spot in my heart for it. Good aikido bears a strong similarity to JJ. Same family.
Thanks for the welcome! Aikido an JJ are definitely related The dojo I attend also gives Aikido classes on monday, but since I allready train Judo, JJJ and Karate it would be a bit much to start Aikido as well
Although my current membership does allow me to attend any class I like, I might check it out some day! If I was still single you might have found me at that dojo every night
I joined MAP a few years ago when I started taking an Aikido class.
The class schedule ended up not working well for me and I abandoned it after a few months.
Since then I had a brief series of classes taught by a guy with experience in boxing, muay thai, and submission wrestling. Focused on drills + live free-form sparring (facemasks/headgear, open-finger 8-oz mma training gloves, mouth guard, cup, full contact at full speed, but not full power, maybe 50% of full power).
I enjoyed that but the instructor had to stop teaching the class due to scheduling issues (this was a free class offered after work by a colleague). I only attended 8 or so of those.
So anyway fast forward a little further and I just joined a Jiu Jitsu school (that is the spelling they use). Seems pretty legit so far; hard dynamic warmup for ~10 minutes, drills/padwork for a while, then open mat time focusing on various topics varying week by week and also by belt level. Generally the open mat time is spent working on techniques that will pop up during your next belt test.
They also have pure open mat times for the whole hour/1.5 hours a few times a week.
The instructor has over 30 years of experience including Hakko Ryu JJ, Aikido, Judo, and Karate.
Have been to 2 classes so far and trained some striking combos, striking into submission holds from the ground (americana from guard, kimura from mount. They emphasized that the majority of the time there is no way to just jump into a submission hold; you throw elbows, hooks, hammer fists, etc while shifting both yourself & them into a more optimal position, and then go for it. They also emphasized getting back up quickly if there are multiple opponents; take any easy opportunity to strike or break things, and get up fast).
We also did a bunch of blocking/slipping/bob & weave practice & practiced falling.
Not sure if they ever do complete free-form sparring; they use full 16oz boxing gloves for striking practice (or bare hands sometimes for some of the pad drills), but no open-finger MMA gloves.
The open mat time at more advanced levels is likely to have some good free-form grappling at least. Though I think once I get more advanced that I would like to do full sparring (gloves, facemask, maybe some armor if we are doing ground n pound). Even if I can't find that at this school I'm pleased with it so far and can see myself studying here for a long while.
I can always try to find full-out sparring partners when I'm more experienced.
The "Americana from guard" sounds amazingly low percentage, no legit school teaches this.
the kimura from mount is not that common either, but does happen, although you cant finish it from mount.
Also if he has no bjj background, why the bjj names?
I may have mixed the names up... the instructor didn't give those names (he called both of them a shoulder break), another student (I didn't see who, could have been a white belt or one of the brown/black belts who help instruct) said those names to someone next to them and I just happened to hear (they were behind me).
The instructor also had a name for the type of hold... it had the word "four" in it, but I don't recall the rest.
I'll describe them as best I can:
The one from guard they said you can only do once you have gotten him to plant both his hands down; if he isn't doing that they said don't try this. (And to try to get him to do that they said throw strikes.)
It was basically sit up putting both your shoulders to one side of their head, hook your arm closest to their body (lets say your right one) through that arm, grab the wrist with your left hand, then clamp onto left wrist with right. Shrimp out (I know that term from wrestling, they called it shrimping too though); without getting out to the side of them you can't get leverage. Then you can apply pressure.
The one from mount involved slamming their arm down so it is pointing up with a good bend in the elbow (not straight back). Lets say their left arm. So your left arm comes over their wrist and grips, you pull your elbow back into the join of their neck & shoulder, you slide your right hand under their arm and grip your left wrist, crank up.
The instruction was to throw strikes and if they try to block in a certain way it opens them up to having their arm slammed down in the correct position.
There was also some part where we were posting on one hand for extra stability, but that may have been some other thing involving strikes (maybe for the hammerfist or some sort of elbow?, I can't recall :-/).
Keep in mind that I'm very new and could be forgetting some part or misremembering something.
EDIT: Found a video showing basically what the one from guard was:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-hyxTuh2YE"]Beginning Jujitsu Moves : Kimura Lock from the Guard Position in Jujitsu - YouTube[/ame]
- We weren't told to release our legs, we were told not to grab the wrist first (there was some reason why, I forget, opened you up to some strike from the one on top). First* sit up and snake your arm through, then grab the wrist and get your butt out so you are off to their side, just like he ends up in that video, still with legs clasped.
* After throwing strikes and whatnot; you need them to plant their hands on the ground first or you'll never get your arm around. (Paraphrasing)
We were told to tap as soon as you feel pressure on the joint, don't wait until it hurts. The ones performing it were told to go very slowly. (This was the beginner class, btw, white, yellow, and orange belts.)
After looking at videos I think I swapped the names by mistake: it was kimura from guard & americana from mount.
On a different topic, they said we would work (in a later class) on disengaging, how to get away from one or more people so you can run safely, some thing involving putting your hands out in front of you (arms almost straight) to create distance, talk them down, etc. (And that if you think it isn't going to work/they pull a weapon/a fight is emminent that you can launch an attack from that position.)
The kimura from guard and americana from mount are both much more high percentage.
They're both figure 4 locks, as your arms look a lot like the figure 4.
Theyre both judo, and BJJ (and old wrestling) techniques.
Glad your enjoying it.
Small tangent but I actually prefer going for the kimura from both guard AND mount and only really going for the Americana from side control instead.
I find it easier to finish the kimura from mount and if you happen to stuff up and bridged you can still finish it from guard. I think the Americana is a little trickier and if you get bridged you ain't got nadda.
To op: enjoy the class! It sounds like a fun functional gendai group
How do you get the hand to the ground reliably from mount top, for the kimura?
Americana from mount is mostly to open them up, when they defend either S mount, an armbar or a choke is avaliable.
If I'm honest Id have to say I don't have a reliable strategy for that at the moment.
When taking mount I'm currently playing with a very high mount with my hips right over my opponents chest and my knees flared which automatically brings their arms up. I then tend to threaten the neck and usually end up finishing with an ezekiel. If not they might ttempt to push the knee/frame off the knee at which point their arm is in the prime position.
What do you do?
Edit, or the above if its mma or with beginners.
was thinking pushing the knee from middle mount whilst flat would be the main one. Or chained from a failed Americana.
Good defensive posture means no knee pushing, but when I do, im on my side so if they tie up the figure 4, im already half way to their back.
When I do go for it, its mount, cross face, underhook, they get on their side, I bail to kob or sc, switch arns for the kimura grip and if I can, finish from NS side on kimura, - to armbar or wrist tie up control to back or lots of choke options.
Yeah if they are on their side I just cross face them back to flat anyway. My mount is pretty boring. I just stabalise, crossface, attack neck over and over until a) I hit the ezekiel b) they screw up and bring their elbows too high defending and I head and arm choke them c) they panvidand push the knee, in which case I go for the kimura with my elbow digging into the side if their head or d) I screw up and get bridged off (almost never happening now) or I have to switch to s mount as they are getting a good angle and getting that knee down before I can flat them.
Why have I never thought to try a kimura from north south?? Again I just go for chokes. NS is probably one of my strongest/heaviest positions right now and I'm sure I could hit a kimura from it with ease... Next session I will try!
I should say Im never catching mount on purple and above. It's always just turtle top, NS and side control in terms of dominant positions over higher belts so my tactics probably reflect that.
I like the vid you posted. My MMA mount is even more boring. It's just the same with an emphasis on punches over anything and everything: yawn. I blame 7oz gloves and the inability to feed my hands into my beloved ezekie in theml
Yeah figure 4 lock is what he called it, thanks.
KneeRider: Functional gendai group--looked up that term, yeah they advertise as a modern jiu jitsu center focusing on self defense.
I'm not really in it for the self defense though; if I want self defense I'd wanna be sparring with full contact, at least once I'm advanced enough. I'm more interested in the fitness and I find learning martial stuff fun--makes the hard workout more tolerable.
(I am a pretty big guy; no one has tried to pick a fight with me since I was 13 or so (I'm in my 30s now). I rarely am in situations such as in bars (when I am its with a larger group of friends generally) or walking alone anywhere. Etc.)
Again though I don't know what sort of sparring the advanced students do. I figure I can worry about that in a few years when I get there (hopefully).
Been on MAP a few years, mostly on the Aikido forum. Moved to Ju Jitsu about a month ago. I'm training with Sensei Antony Bailey,Mizu Ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. 15 years and back to white belt.
Enjoy Macker ...every day is a school day !!
my name ist Markus and I am from Bochum Germany.
I practice Jiu Jitsu for 28 years and I am a Yondan.
Welcome to MAP! It's always nice to meet another JJJ person!
Sorry for my english.
I have not used so talk in english for al long time.
Separate names with a comma.