Jon Jones ducks MW Goat and P4P king, decides to rematch Karate Boy Machida Instead.

*Quick thing about the videos being posted*

ToS such as swearing includes videos that include them. At times some (may) be allowed if its PG (and the video is very relevant to discussion and posts) but other videos which throws the "f" bomb every other sentence I will take down.
I have yet to go through all the videos...so if some are taken down in the next 1 min to 2 days, you have that time to get through it before I stomp it.

MAP is a family site. Also Appreciate if posters can please place warnings on the vids that there is swearing.

 

Sorry for the vid, it was a bit OTT on the swearing and on second thoughts perhaps not appropriate.

 

Its cool, I know you didnt mean harm.

 

No Dana white videos then?

 

Once again, in context. Even Dana doesnt throw the F bomb too much these days. And its not like he's doing Troll vids.

For example the emergency Press Conference in regards to the cancellation of 151. He swears once or twice in it, however it is a key piece of media (if not the most important part) of the topic.

I've posted Post Event Press Conferences, and Dana does throw it, but probably just 1 or 2 and thats when it touches on a subject he doesnt like or gets very passionate about. Ultimately 99% of the vid is about the event we are talking about...

If I click on a video, and its essentially ranting with a swear word every sentence, then I will make a decision to cut it.

All videos are assessed (when able) and decisions are made to keep or not. However we do trust that members report videos/posts that are disgreed with against ToS which are then deliberated with other Mods, some are easy decision to keep, others may take a little chat about.

If you have a video that seems to agree with your views but has lots of swearing, then I suggest you type your views into a post rather than let some random spout out his/her/their view via swearing. Its comes off better for you as its viewed as YOUR opinion and not someone else's.

Saying that, this thread is having a good discussion and applaud everyone for it considering the various characters involved.

 

When you say 'various characters involved' are you referring to us or the fighters?

 

Take your pick

 

warning: the following is a post from a guy who doesn't feel like writting much at 10:30 after he just got off work- so more writing will be posted tomorrow.

1.) the difference between what I wrote and you wrote is I didn't completely discredit any victories based on calling things flukes, or sighting things like "needs of surgery". The only time I ever did that was during the the discussion of him and Silva 1. I'd consider an admitted and documented injury far more of a factor going into a fight then the "need" for knee surgery. You were the one who called out Brock lesners need for surgery due to his illness as factors for his performance before he retired. Though I do believe that you getting the W doesn't mean you "won the fight" i should say and shows loads about how good or poor you are. example. lesner did indeed defeat carwin, but he took a smashing in the process because he had no standup as we found out. Carwin tired himself out with the TKO attempt, and had nothing left for the second round to which brock capitalized on. Velasquez did the exact same game plan minus the overexcitement when he knew he he was about to win and got the victory. I'll even give Chael credit for solving a good part of the silva puzzle by showing where he was weak at.

2.) my point: a good in MMA figher in my opinion falls into two categories. Fights the fight wherever it goes and can win in any fashion or area ( Matt hughes's victories in decisions, KO's tko's and submissions. or GSP's litteral complete adaptance to who he fights ( fighting koscheck on his feet with straight jab, submitting matt hughes, and tko'ing BJ penn.[ all bigger names then sonnen ever did, but now i'm just playing troll ]

or being so good in all areas that you only fight one way ( only striking like jones, or silva for instance) because nobody can pose a threat to you in any other department. Chuck was very hard to takedown, and had decent Jiujitsu from a defensive perspective. Tito Ortiz had great standup, and great abu dhabi class jiujitsu. but "chose" to fight on the ground and g&p people- cept unlike sonnen he actually hit them hard. ( trollin).

3.) out of his entire fight career he has fought exactly the same except with even worse submission defense. and out of 27 wins he couldn't KO anybody? I rest by my decision of pillow hands.

4.) again, when he can drop someone with any of those punches we'll talk. people "consistently land punches" in point Karate too. Hell, if he could stand with anyone for more then 2 milliseconds after that punch then i'd give you more leverage.

5.) I admit I know little about T/E ratings others then the short excerpts i've read so you got me there.

6.) very cute knoxy, very cute.

7.) there are similarities between sonnen and hendo seing as they train at the same camp, and come from same backgrounds. yes but you can't tell me your actually in the belief that they are going to fight the same way? Hendo's standup is much much better a la 13 KO's, and he doesn't immediately shoot in. Chael for all your ranting and raving is still the same one trick pony self.

8.) as for jon Jones. the video I posted earlier made a great analogy about the fight. the top 5 fighters in the UFC make more in endorsements then they do in the sport. Just like any athlete who is consider the best. Tiger woods, Mayweather, etc. because of that upholding that legacy for those deals not just there title is even more important. So you don't see many top 10 people in anything taking replacements like that.

if they told Mayweather 8 days before a fight he's fighting someone else he would just cuss them out completely disagree, and go home. If the Browns were suppose to play a game versus green bay, and then 8 days before they are told they have to play the Raiders-even though its just the raiders not an important team, they'd still disagree and refuse- because they've been training for a complete different game.

I'd say Chael did slightly better against silva did then hendo, but only slightly.

for people at that level your image is of the utmost importance, you see a lot more replacement fights from people trying to make names for themselves or gain quick glory by beating someone who was not ready for them.( or talking themselves into a undeserved title shot before they've even thrown a punch in that division in 6 years)

my bottom line is the same is still by the numbers.
-he has beaten no title holders
-is a one trick pony to cover up his lack of submission capability or defense( though the defense has supposedly gotten better- but only time will tell if thats true) against someone he can't takedown he is screwed.
-couldn't even defeat silva on his worse night with confirmed injury, looked like a child in the last fight( a takedown that he did nothing with once he got on top, very few shots at all. followed by a round of nothing but failed attempts, and backfist he saw the night prior in enter the dragon, that he thought would be cool to try out.
-No KO power, or even knockdown power
-has a catalogue of career losses by people who didn't go far or haven't went far in the sport at all from rookie mistakes of not knowing to not put one arm in and one arm out in someones guard.

as I mentioned the people who beat Couture were at least all legendary fighters, many of which in the hall of fame. hell even Lesner, though I think its still a crock of crap.

-he has a worldclass mouth and people believe he's the greatest because he talks like one, and they find his rants, third person discussions, hype of how great he's going to beat people he has no chance of defeating(Jones) entertaining.

he has serious holes in his game, and has to fix them like mad before he's ever a great fighter. till then he just keep wearing his fake belt and pretending. His pressure style of fighting and strong takedowns allows him to beat many run of the mill guys, but he's not at the level of the best by far. He's a gatekeeper for the division.

 

You’ve dodged this question twice.
Make a list of the 10 best guys at 185 ever, I’ll help by adding in the first guy and then you fill in the rest. I’d have a hard time of putting any fighters ahead of Sonnen at number 2, I doubt even outside of the top 5 is possible.
1) Anderson Silva
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)




1) To my knowledge Anderson Silva never had rib surgery, Shogun had two knee surgeries, one shortly after the Griffin fight.
I wasn’t using it as an excuse for the fact he lost, Brock lost cause he didn’t get him down. However having a huge surgery in your abdomen then the K-1 Champion kicking and kneeing you in it, you can’t blame a guy for going down to that.
Lesnar landed a huge punch on Herring and won the title using his striking he also managed to bloody Overeem’s nose. Carwin is possibly the hardest hitter in the entire sport so I can understand it might hurt when you got punched by him, furthermore he’s one of the best heavyweight strikers and Lesnar still came back and won; to me that’s awesome and I wish I was able to pull off something similar. Velasquez did take Brock down, Carwin didn’t. Velasquez I would say is a better wrestler in general, and a pretty good striker.

Anyway I didn’t post that to cite specific examples merely to point out that you can see negatives about virtually every fighter in the sport from the best fighters to the prelim fighters. A lot of the points weren’t based off flukes, although some where it was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek.

2) Well GSP in my opinion is the most well rounded fighter ever in MMA and the best welterweight ever, so just because he isn’t the best doesn’t mean other guys are great. And Matt Hughes wasn’t much of a stand up fighter his slam’s, GNP and Submissions were all complimentary, so I wouldn’t exactly say he was dominant at all ranges.

Second of all Jon Jones isn’t a guy who just strikes, he tends to strike more often verses other wrestlers such as Rashad and Rampage, which is understandable, but against Stephan Bonnar, Matt Hamill, Brandon Vera, Matyushenko, Bader and Shogun he mostly got top position and threw some nasty elbows. He struck inconclusively with Machida for one round, then in the second hit him with the inside trip, when that didn’t work he hit him with the double leg then elbowed a nasty cut on Machida’s forehead. Dropped him standing then; finished him with a choke. So I don’t know why you included him in with the others. I would probably switch Jones with Hughes in these two lists.

I think I’ve understood what you mean now there are fighters you force you to fight one game plan which they always do and there are fighters who fight are able to switch it up a bit. Well Chael Sonnen goes in with same game plan every fight so he definitely fits in the category, I don’t understand why you put Tito in there and not Sonnen when both of their modi operandi are to gain top position and beat their opponent up. Might I also point out that Chael Sonnen has competed in ADCC, albeit not to the same success. Well if Tito had great stand up, and Forrest out struck Tito and Anderson out struck Forrest , and Chael out struck Anderson, how good must Chael’s stand up be?
[Slightly trolling, but slightly not]

3) A lot of guys are hard to finish and it’s not just MMA, there’s plenty of decisions in boxing, Olympic judo matches won by shido, Wrestling matches one by two points, Greco-roman matches won by a ball being pulled out of a bag. People don’t like to lose, people don’t like to get knocked out, people train defence. Also lets not to forget

4) Okay well the guys are the karate tourney don’t strike with Anderson Silva and Bisping (who is allegedly a UK champion of pro kickboxing).

I will also freely admit I am not much of a striking expert, however these guys are and they think Sonnen’s striking are effective, as they have a greater expertise I think perhaps you should listen to them rather than me:

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/4...el-sonnen-out-struck-anderson-silva#storyjump

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9L1xy7fTS4"]Chael Sonnen vs Anderson Silva: striking analysis - YouTube[/ame]
I supposed I should add my definition of effective striking.
Either:
1. KO/TKOing the other guy before you.
2. Dropping/Rocking your opponent more and/or landing more significant strikes than your opponent. Without being KO/TKOed
Is that not a fair decision of effective striking.

Might I also add that the fight with Yushin Okami is quite striking based, Chael outstrikes him and lands two spinning back kicks.

5) (formerly 6) You might have missed my point about the WEC belt due to migh ‘High-larious’ joke; but Chael really should have it. Apparently Fihlo’s manager agrees.
6) Not at all, I was just replying to what you said ‘completely differently’. Infact I didn’t necessarily disagree, I never said anything about the fight strategy, what the opening move would be, or anything of that nature. I even acknowledged that Sonnen has a ‘wider variety of takedowns’, which I would say includes shooting a double or a single, or perhaps I should have added in that Sonnen is pretty goody at ducking under punches. Now I didn’t have that phrase in my head at the time (I reread part of his book last night, and there was a part where that did come up) and ‘There’s is a lot what they do differently though’. Then again it was only a rough analysis and I didn’t mean it to be a comprehensive list at all.

If you were for example going to ask me to do what the ufc does, where they have like 3 bullet points only one of them would probably be the same which would be something about wrestling. Really I think you just wanted to try and disagree with me, perhaps it had become a habit.

Also if I’m just a nobody on the internet and Greg Jackson is one of the best coaches on the planet I’m sure he could probably spot a lot more.

7) I agree Jones is under no obligation to fight a guy who steps up in 8 days notice,* if anything we should be praising Sonnen as the hero that the UFC deserves but that one it needs right now.

I think though it is fair to call Jones out when he ‘tweeted’ ‘I will fight anyone the UFC puts in front of me’ and calling Sonnen a ‘#coward’ but then Sonnen steps up to fight him and Jones backs out.

Slightly?
‘This is more shots than Anderson has taken in his entire MMA career’- Joe Rogan on the 1st round of Silva Sonnen 1
Dan Henderson took one round from Anderson Silva, mostly from one takedown and was content to sit in half guard, passed to sidemount, then got put back in guard. In the second Silva got to position twice took his back and chocked. Sonnen took 5 rounds, dropped him, got two 10-8 rounds, has 4 takedowns, passed his guard got to mount once and tried lock in an arm triangle. They both got finished. Henderson’s a great fighter but he didn’t do as well. Vitor didn’t win a round, Okami didn’t, Franklin didn’t, Forrest Griffin didn’t. It’s also not incorrect to suggest that Silva improved from the Franklin fight to the Henderson fight to the first Sonnen fight to the second Sonnen fight.

Here’s the Henderson and first Sonnen fight, maybe you’re remembering it differently.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br7QuvWq8GY"]Free Fight: Anderson Silva vs Dan Henderson - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uomb-sKvbaw&feature=relmfu"]Free Fight: Anderson Silva vs Chael Sonnen - YouTube[/ame]

Chael has beaten at least two title holders Brian Stann (WEC Light Heavyweight) and Paulo Fihlo (WEC Middleweight). If you don’t think much of WEC titles perhaps you should speak to the UFC Interim Welterweight champion and Lightweight Champion. I could add in Feather and Bantamweights but they but they had a monopoly on that.

I think you also place too much importance on a title, Mat Hughes had a huge title reign, Jon fitch has never won the title does that Matt Hughes is leagues above Jon fitch. I would say no, Thiago Alves was able to beat Hughes, I can’t recall Hughes even gaining a takedown. Fitch beat Alves twice! So perhaps the title isn’t that important.

In terms of Jiujitsu he got the mount position in his last 3 fights, side mount in his last 4, set up an arm triangle in 3 of 4, took the back in 5 of his last 6 fights. I’d say that’s pretty good. As for submission defence recently he’s only lost to Demian Maia and Anderson Silva, to use another Joe Rogan quote ‘You don’t just have to be good off your back you’ve got to be a murderer’. If Sonnen’s sub. defence is so bad how come BJJ black belts Dan Miller and Nate Marquadt were unsuccessful, Brian Stann submitted a Black belt, but got submitted by Sonnen, and most importantly; what about Micheal Bisping who arm barred MAPs very own Hannibal. Even when Sonnen fought Babalu at a significant weight disadvantage many years ago he was able to stave of a few attempts including a tight leglock.

I think I’ve already made my case for Sonnen’s striking earlier, so no need to go over that again. And lets not forget no one in the UFC has ever stopped Sonnen from gaining a takedown.

Well even on his worst night Silva is the best 185er on the planet. If we’re pulling out the excuses card, I will counter claim by saying Sonnen had a stomach bug. In the second fight Sonnen took him down and got full mount, he wasn’t doing that badly in round 2 either to be fair, Sonnen couldn’t take Silva down of round 4 of the first fight, doesn’t mean the next round he couldn’t take him down like he did in the first. Sonnen made his mistake and Anderson capitalised on it, I don’t see what is so bad about that, in every fight there are always mistakes; However one against Silva can cause you to lose . Also if Anderson Silva thought that he fought like a child why did he feel the need to cheat? The answer he didn’t. Obviously Silva thinks Sonnen is a great fighter.

He knocked down Silva, only guy in the UFC that has that feat.

Like Daiju Takase or Ryo Chonnan, everyone has the odd black spot on their record Hughes has Hallman, Couture has IIyukhin or Inoue. However those losses are completely irrelevant, is the Anderson the same fighter at UFC 148 as he was vs Chonnan? Ofcourse not. Is Couture the same guy when he fought Enson Inoue as when he beat Chuck Lidell? Nope. It’s the same with a lot of guys people improve over time.

Also Jeremy Horn is a pretty good fighter.

Might I also add neither the Maia fight nor the Anderson fight were due to putting one arm in and one out.

Couture’s lost to great guys, but he’s also lost to some not so great guys to be fair. Well if Sonnen was still at 185 he would ranked somewhere in the top 2-5. Being in the top 5 fighters at 185 is quite and accomplishment.

 

how did anderson cheat? are you talking about the whole grabbing the pants thing, and the Vaseline? I wouldn't call that cheating, people grab the pants by accident in most fights at one point, the last fight i saw jose aldo in he did the same thing. Its a heat of the moment thing.

 

Fouls- (with explanations where warranted)

2. Holding opponent's shorts or gloves;

A fighter may not control their opponent's movement by holding onto their opponent's shorts or gloves. A fighter may hold onto or grab their opponent's hand as long as they are not controlling the hand only by using the material of the glove, but by actually gripping the hand of the opponent. It is legal to hold onto your own gloves or shorts.

http://www.abcboxing.com/unified_mma_rules.html

Can happen by accident, but Silva held on for about 15-20ish. So Obviously Silva wanted every advantage he could get. Had to pull out all the stops to face his most dangerous opponent.

 

Just a very quickly correction. I've watched this fight many times and I remember it perfectly (as a Machida fan, this was one of the most important moments of his career). Jon Jones had a difficult 1st round, maybe because Machida just has that particular and inimitable way of fighting. Because he was having a hard time with stand up striking, he did what you just said, switch to grappling; he went right in and threw Machida to the floor. It was a perfect throw, not one wasted movement, still it was pretty obvious that the physical difference (Jones is so much taller and is perfectly builded for heavyweight) played its part. It was then, on the floor, when Jones cut open Machida's forehead with his elbow. Jones has a great ground&pound. After that, Machida lost his strenght quickly (if you ask me, the fight should have been stopped right there), allowing Jones to go in once again with a knee and finish him with a standing choke (another thing he could do thanks to his height advantage).

Jones proved to be a pretty strong adversary, so I understand why Machida doesn't want to fight him yet.

 

He did hit him with a knee, but that was after Jones hit him with a left hook which dropped him onto all fours. If you don't believe me; here you go http://ssreporters.wordpress.com/20...t-jon-jones-chokes-lyoto-machida-unconscious/

 

Yep, you're right. Still, for me, that doesn't make that much difference; I think the fight was lost since Jones cut him with that elbow. Machida was too weak after that.

 

I'd definitely agree that it was the take down and elbows that were the game changing moment.

 

Personally while in that position he was in it wasnt really relevant. He was shouted out to stop holding the shorts. In a grappling on the floor situation I would understand. (although he was clearly holding on and nearly ripped the shorts).

However in a standing position I was suprised he wasnt hit more. He had one hand holding onto the shorts, while trying to strike against someone of whom had both hands free.

I was screaming and shouting while he wiped his vaseline from face to chest though. Avril Lavigne (giggle) did spot it and wiped him off, though once again not sure if that also made a difference.
However I think he was more lubed up than GSP wouldve been though.

In UK MMA use of vaseline is completely ruled out, as even though you rub it on the face, it gets spread about anyway in grappling situations.

 

1) Anderson Silva
2)Sakuraba
3)Frank Shamrock
4)Carlos Newton
5)Dan Henderson
6)Vitor Belfort
7)Jake Shields
8)Hector Lombard
9)Rich Franklin
10)Jacare

 

Why are we even having this discussion anyway? Someone who has NEVER won a title in any promotion can hardly be called GOAT, while the WEC title fight was bad (although I don't get why Filho didn't just say he wasn't fit to fight when he clearly wasn't), both times in the UFC he's been unambiguously beaten.

 

I agree with this (except I DO like Sonnen).

And I definitely agree with this also.

 

dude now you've just lost me. I can name 5 fights off the top of my head where thats happend. Anderson was blocking his leg to stop a takedown attempt then began to strike. I just rewatched the tape and he only had grips on the shorts from the 3:53 mark to the 3:51 of the second round. not 15-20.

2.) Silva may have performed the action unconsciously, simply trying to remove a glob of Vaseline from his face, then later from his fingers. Of course, the natural place to do that would be on his shorts not his body.

But still, would he go ahead and try it during the pre-fight ceremonies when everyone is watching? regardless it got wiped off so it didn't matter much at all.

3.) and just for all intense and purposes the knee very much did hit his chest, though it missed his face by a hair.

for the love of Christ, this just like after Lesner lost to cain Velasquez how everyone was calling cain a cheater because he hit brock in the back of the head while he was moving.

also my quick conspiracy theory. Sonnen and Hendo both train at team quest. Hendo had a MCL injury or weeks prior to him finally saying he couldn't fight. and just a couple of days before the big decision, sonnen starts a twitter war with the champion about how he will defeat him to gain more hype. then low and behold Hendo says he can't make it and sonnen, his training partner happens to be ready to take the replacement. coincidence?

gatekeeper, pillow hands sonnen.

just another ploy to hype into fight cards. This is just like the hype that Lesner had ( and apparently is still believed) well regardless You're a fan, and I'm not. So we're going to see a different side of the same coin.

the fights cancelled so lets go on.

here is a video of a turtle humping a shoe to solidify the end of my discussion.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3BYCT5oWw"]Tortoise having sex with a shoe, squeaking. - YouTube[/ame]