Jon Jones ducks MW Goat and P4P king, decides to rematch Karate Boy Machida Instead.

Lesnar was very skilled - and strong, and took shots that would have starched anyone else

Problem was he had little to no experience in striking to draw on when he was tagged so his visceral response was always "look for cover and grab"

At only 8 fights total I don't think he can be judged too harshly - and don't forget that he didn't just beat Mir the second time, he DOMINATED him. Mir, whatever else he is, is a very skilled HW by any measure

Now, is Lesnar HoF? Depends - undeniably the biggest draw in the sport so far he also had a meteoric rise ( and equally fast fall). But he beat a lot of tough men, and he is certainly not JUST a big lug ( a la Bobby Lashley for example)

I was always a fan - but as a wrestling mark that is not too surprising either!

 

Anyways back on topic.

Earlier I said "Wheres Shogun?" I forgot to mention he's injured apparently from his last fight with Brandon Vera (or at least a medical suspension).

Was it a horrible descision to scrap the entire card? With the 100's of fighters on roster they couldnt get a new (albeit possibly mediocre) main event?

Either way the fans lose, but its still an event. Just reading up that all the fighter's are NOT getting paid...whether or not there will be Zuffa compensation is another thing.

Which also brings back the topic of how much these guys get paid. Looking at recent rates, lower-mid tier guys can get as little as $6000 (x2 with win bonus).
$12,000 is not much considering that pay is yet to be deducted with trainer pay, training etc and also the added costs of paying for hotel rooms/flights for family.

Then you have the staff at Mandalay Bay, staff at Zuffa (remember their pay comes from these events) as well as other staff that I cant think of right now.

A tweet from Joe Rogan also just mentioned that even his standup show the night before has been cancelled because of the event
Everyone loses.

 

Well Hannibal pretty much said everything concerning Lesnar, I'd add he did become the champion by beating Couture and even at his age he was pretty good. We don't really know how the disease affected him either negatively or at all.

Well Chael is a great fighter he beat a bunch of top ten guys the UFC put infront of him if you haven't heard of those guys that's fine but there the best guys, Marquadt and Okami both fought for the title though. Could you name 10 guys better than Chael Sonnen at 185? has anyone ever done as well as he did against Anderson Silva in either fight?

1. Now you can say 27-12-1 isn't impressive, but he did fight a lot of tough guys some above his own weight class. However Randy Couture has a record of 19-11 are you going to argue he isn't a great fighter.

2. Well decision is a win so that isn't an indicator of his skill of a fighter. If you are saying you don't enjoy watching him then that's fine but it doesn't mean he's a bad fighter.

3. Well no man has been able KO Silva, that would suggest it's pretty hard to do.

4. Well he doesn't have a lot of KO power but, we struck with Silva, Bisping and Okami and none of them made him look like a chump.

5a. I don't actually think that's how the testing works, I'm pretty sure they use actual testosterone testing. Again this is all speculation anyway.

5bi. Well he took Bisping down 4 out of 7 attempts, He got 3 of 7 against Silva and he had 10 fewer minutes to get those takedowns against Bisping. Bringing up a fight where a guy achieves more takedowns in less time i don't think helps your case there. Bisping has great scrambling and it's similar to the Okami fight, If he can't keep you down he has to fight standing.

5bii. He came out the second pretty fast, drove Silva to cage, tried to get the single failed. Had another single attempt, and went for a hip throw. That's a fair amount of attempts till the ill conceived spinning back fist.

5c. It also borders into the realm of speculation, we could do that with a lot of things though: Sonnen's mindset, the changing of some of the guys in his corner, his weight cut (207 at UFC 109 217ish at 148). But the're all unknowns like the amount of testosterone Sonnen took.

All this about his chances against Jones are irrelevant and deserving don't really matter, as I've covered before no one really deserved a shot at Jones and I don't think anyone at 205 could beat him technically, there's always the chance the H-Bomb lands or Vitor could land a solid shot with his speed. He looks to be on another level to everyone in the division.

 

Sonnen is a punk that was recently put in his place hard (hows the chest chael?)

Brock lesner is stong as an ox and has some good techniques, but couldnt hope to stand against someone similar with more experience in the sport ( I.E overeem) i was impressed with some of his stuff though.

 

With or without lube, robin?

 

I dont know , whichever you feel like man, myself i was jyust refering to the silva fight. if you were talking about something else. well you enjoy that.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1boDIKbYFXU&feature=related"]UFC 151 cancelled, Jon Jones to fight Lyoto Machida, Dana White furious - YouTube[/ame]

Goes on to say on record to call Greg Jackson a "Sport killer". Wow.

 

What in the world? UFC official website says that Jones will be fighting Vitor Belfort in UFC 152!! Is this some kind of prank or what?

EDIT: sorry, I hadn't read the whole post, now I think I understand everything a little better... or maybe not, because, geez, what the heck did just happened? Henderson is injured, Jones doesn't want to fight Sonnen and Machida doesn't want to fight Jones? So no what, nobody fights nobody? My head hurts... :S

 

The Ultimate Fighting-as-long-as-it's-convenient Championship of course.

Title Fights
I've been told Vitali Klitschko stepped in to fight Lennox Lewis on short notice. 10 days I think.

Jon Jones got his title shot when Rashad was injured. That was about 34 days notice.
Rashad retaliated by ruining his special night, Twice!

Joe Riggs fought Matt Hughes when Karo Parisyian got injured, that was about 13 days. (Was actually non-title because Riggs missed weight)

Non-Title Fights
Bisping fought Chael on 8 days notice.

Chael fought Dan Miller on 22ish days

Charlie Brenneman Stepped in on 24 hours notice to fight Rick Story. And won.

Josh Koscheck Stepped in to fight Hughes in 18 days.

In other news Chael Sonnen's 'Mean Streets Pizza' has a Jon Jones Special:

 

1.) wow did you honestly just compare the two? top 10? do you really consider any of people sonnen defeated anywhere close to the caliber of oppoenents ( in their prime ) tha Couture defeated?

Almost all ( around 80% ish) of the people Couture fought and defeated were people who had been or were championship level material. those opponents are simply legendary. most have held a belt somewhere in there lives. so the caliber of opponents that he defeated far exceeds anything sonnen has seen. anytime he comes up against someone of that level at all sonnen loses. Stann only even had a belt for one fight before he lost in WEC.


chael beat a bunch of the top ten guys?
when it comes to middleweights chael has beaten two top ten guys, and finished one:
and Nate sure isn't one of them.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/middleweight-division-185-pound-limit-mma-top-10

2.) true a decision is a win, and guess this comes down to personal definition of a great fighter.

to me a great (MMA)fighter is someone who can fight in all ranges effectively, and can win or at least prevail in all areas. Chael can win the fight if he can mount you and gain a decision or every once and a while a choke. someone like GSP can gain a decision, tko or submission it doesn't matter. or oldschool Matt Hughes.

or even so good in one area that they only fight the way they like to because everything else is so good they don't have to fight in other way. ( ala jones, Anderson, and oldschool chuck liddel) like Royce, i don't think were great MMA fighters. albet definitely can fight, and great fighters in the broader since of the word. but not great MMA fighters.

3.) its not just KO'ing silva he has been in absolute perfect positions to KO or TKO people in almost every fight he's gotten control on the ground in. yet he still can't do it. out of 27 wins only 3 people he's ever tko'd. they rest have basically been glorified lay and prays. again: Pillow hands sonnen.

4.) its MMA he's going to get some shots in. if they dropped they're guards you or I could stun them atleast momentarily,doesn't really matter. when he's standup is actually something to be feared ala consistant knockdowns, stuns, or at least a 1-2 KO's then that will hold more weight.

5.) my point average man has t rating of 4:1 to 6:1. he tested in 16.9 over 1. which is what originally made it known that he was "juicing" even though he had the permission to take testosterone he didn't have the permission to have level's that high,and he was not nearly as relentless( meaning constant pressure and unrelenting strikes and control that he showed) in the Bisbing fight, or silva 2.

6.) i subscribe to this sport show called the uncut sport show: i find them really funny, and to be pretty well informed and a little more of the unbiased fan perspective then someone on let say sports net. in the first 8 minutes they cover 100% of my opinion on sonnen. minus the fact that i like his literary works, and don't think he's a scumbag(anymore).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWyOGCUixto&feature=plcp"]UFC 151 Fallout! Dana White upset at Jon Jones and Jackson camp! - YouTube[/ame]

best part

" you never held a belt, you have double digit losses, you have a top 5 mouth"

their comments about Chael and Hendo being from same camp makes a lot of since. as well as Jones's perspective for taking the fight.

 

I think though that is all admirable they chose to make that change, and obviously they didn't have to. I forget which US president it was, but one of them didn't resign after 2 terms because it wasn't a rule it was just customary. Same thing, though it may come off as a punk move, there isn't a policy in placed that forces Jones or anyone to fight should their opponent not be able to, its just customs.

For Dana to go on record and say Dan henderson and Chael are the same fighter is crazy, if you look at any of their fights they go about them completely differently. As greg Jackson said, there was nothing to gain, but a lot to lose for that fight. I think Dana is just showing some favoritism to his major marketing mouth sonnen.

 

This is extremely funny .

But watch out! Dana White will get mad at you and tell everybody how mad he is at you! :ban:

 

Sonnen is doing a media sound off. If we look to history, he is about to have his ass handed to him, then say something polite about the victor , then move on to the next opponent. .....and repeat.

 

Yet willing to fight the best out there knowingly that the stakes far outweigh against his favour. And still the closest one beating whom is considered best in the World.

 

If I recall , wasnt silva injured in that fight, bad rib or something. I mean how does Sonnen have this kind of standing, whose has he beaten. The only big names I see on his list are Yushin Okami and Michael Bisping and maybe nate marquart. And these were all by decisions. The way he talks you would think he has knocked out some big contenders. I mean lesner not only won, but knocked out more big names in his total of 8 matches than Sonnen has in his whole career of something like 40 fights. not to mention his win record is something like 27 out of 40. thats almost 50 percent each way.

guys got guts, but it seems he talks better than he fights.

 

All fighters talk better than fight. Sonnen more so as basically its his character as well it seems his marketing tool. (can thank Tito for that) Bisping does the same, but he just comes out like a jerk. But somehow also as a nice guy :s
(Also I think Bisping won the fight 2-1, Sonnen even admitted to it)

It would be interesting to see what happens when fighters start saying "Well, I think I'll do ok...chances are I'll lose, but you know I may get lucky"

In this kind of format, one must sell the fight, to have ticket sales, to get paid. We are the suckers who pay to watch these guys fight. But only if you're interested.

Silva claimed injury yes, but still goes on record for nearly being beat by Sonnen and no one at that level goes in with some form of injury. Rarely a fighter goes in 100% healthy. And he did earn the initial title shot, but you cant say he didnt by soundly beat Brian Stann (a former WEC Champ himself, as well as a respectable MAist). Brian Stann who knows Sonnen inside out and punches way harder than him. But Sonnen, grounded him out, out wrestled him and then submitted Stann with an Arm-Triangle.

I agree with the records, however its also about consistency. You can start off losing 5 in a row...but then start winning 5 in a row against decent people (which would then be 5-5) tells you that a person is improving a lot more. And with certain marketability can earn you a title fight.
Also it looks a lot better than winning 5 in a row, then losing 5 in a row. Which signals something is wrong.

Sonnen had 8 days notice, not trained since Silva, possibily still aching and was willing to fight against Jones, who is supposed to be peaking at this point in time.
Sonnen had nothing going for him and most likely he would be destroyed.

But its still win/win for him.

He wins...he becomes a Rocky figure. Untrained, overweight, stepped up and more importantly becomes Champ. With his marketing skills UFC/Sonnen stock would have meteoritically risen.

He loses - he still becomes a near Rocky figure for simply turning up.

The current situation, was possible best outcome for Sonnen. He can claim Jones ducked him, Jones looks the bad guy and due to the fight not happening, speculation is now rife as to how this fight might've happened, causing interest to a Jones/Sonnen fight.

No one was talking about Jones/Machida...even less people are talking about Jones/Belfort! Right now its all about Sonnen and its exactly how we are being played.

 

Warning ahead of you is the post of the century, not because it’s good or well written but because it took me what feels like a century to write it.


1) Well you were the one to bring up numbers without putting in the context. Anyway this is a subpiece with in the post which I call Everybody Sucks.

Well I think Couture is a great fighter to, but you did pull up the numbers up, but the guy beats guy’s like Tony Halme, Steven Graham, Ryushi Yanagisawa and James Toney, are they good wins? Fighting pro wrestlers and taking boxers down with geriatric low single. He loses to guys like Mikhail IIyukhin, Enson Inoue, Valentijn Overeem, and by your admission Brock Lesnar. Well he can’t get past that pro wrestler, a guy who’s spent his athletic prime throwing guys into turnbuckles, a guy who has been destroying his knees jumping off of ladders and fireman carrying the so called ‘big show’. Then there is the worse Overeem brother a guy with a 32-30 record, perhaps he should pad that with some of the bouncers him and his brother knocked out whilst in Amsterdam.

Whilst I’m on the subject of drawing ridiculous conclusions from fighters records shall I add that Shogun Rua has never lost a fight! When he fought Babalu he was too green, that Coleman fight was a fluke, who gets his arm broken off a double leg, that would never happen again. Forrest Griffin? Doesn’t count Shogun needed knee surgery? Are you going to try to convince me that decision with Machida wasn’t a robbery? That Jones fight he still didn’t have healthy knees, and got hit by that flukey flying knee. That Dan Henderson fight was at least a draw and everyone knows it, that last round was a 10-8, and even Dan Hendersons friend Chael Sonnen thought Shogun won the first.

Who shall I discredit next BJ Penn? Losing to Jens Pulver and drawing with Caol Uno what a great fighter. Chuck Liddell guy got submitted by Jeremy Horn, only guys with no Sub Defense like Chael Sonnen get submitted by that guy, He couldn’t knock out Amar Suloev; even pillow hands Sonnen got a TKO vs him. And talk about poor technique, the unluckiest fighter to ever fight in Pride and the UFC, Guy Mezger put a Striking Clinic on that guy. Sakuraba? He couldn’t do anything to Guy Mezger, the guy got an unwarranted title shot vs Wanderlei Silva, using his personality and charm to get into an underserved title shot who does this guy think he is Chael Sonnen? He couldn’t beat Kimo Leopoldo what a joke, and he sits in a ring and cries when decisions don’t go his way, please. Matt Hughes, c’mon that guy couldn’t beat Dennis ‘Tighty Whiteys’ Hallman. Dan Henderson, I have to hear about how much power this guy has in his hands, even Chael ‘Pillow Hands’ Sonnen dropped Silva twice, that guy shows up to the Silva fight like a drunken pensioner, windmills 5 hooks, all of them land and Silva’s unfazed. What a Joke!

See how I was able to bash so many legends there. Now that is a flippant wall o text, however I would say it shows you if you want to see negative things about certain fighters you can.
Jeez you bring up a ranking from july 2012, when the fight was in 2010 and Nate has since changed weight classes.
Here you go though: http://www.heavy.com/mma/2010/07/heavy-mma-rankings-july-2010/4/
http://www.heavy.com/mma/2010/07/heavy-mma-rankings-july-2010/4/
Here's one with Paulo Fihlo as ranked #2 in the world, but I've seen rankings where he was number 1 whilst Anderson was at middleweight. And when Anderson first moved to middleweight it’s not inconceivable that Fihlo could have beat him.
As for top ten wins he has 5
Fihlo
Okami
Marquadt
Stann
And Bisping
Other guys with top only 5 top ten wins: Jon Jones, Rashad, JDS.
Ahead of Frankie Edgar Frank Mir and Nick diaz; those guys only have 4.
2)Your examples to counter my decision wrestler is George St Pierre, a guy who has won most his matches by decision? And is Matt Hughes supposed to represent in all ranges effectively?

I don’t see why can’t accept the top fighters on the planet are quite tough.

I don’t understand what the second paragraph is supposed to mean to be honest. Are you saying that Jones Anderson and Liddell aren’t well rounded?
3) Who? Bisping? only ever stopped by a huge punch from Henderson, Not Okami as Sonnen couldn't hold him down. Miller or Marquadt? both were in guard not the easiest to place to finish a guy. Paulo Fihlo? never been finished . The most Durable fighter to ever exist at 185? He's never been knocked out either.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRdYec68MOk"]Anderson Silva Is One Scary Dude: Got The Strongest Chin In The UFC! - YouTube[/ame]
4) Meh he consistently lands punches on the best fighters on the world at his weight class, and on the only guy I’ve ever seen so as much as hurt Anderson.

5) ‘If anyone asks you about Chael Sonnen you tell him he’s got a higher juice concentration than tropicana’- Chael Sonnen

I think you've been deceived here that CSAC is actually a competent organisation and that a T:E test is a good Idea. Firstly almost everyone has 1:1 not 4:1 or 6:1. Secondly 16.9:1 is just a ratio, I could conceivably have a ratio of 1:1 and still have have more testosterone, all the 16.9 tells us is that he took synthetic testosterone which he allegedly told them. When you get a TUE you actually get an actual legitimate form of testing. Here's the bottom line Chael Sonnen didn't get accused of steroids, wasn't found guilty of them, he got a suspension, Sonnen went to the trial accused of substance abuse, when he got there he rebutted CSAC they had to change their case and went to disclosure issue, otherwise Chael would have gotten away and CSAC would have been exposed as the fools they rightly are.

Video here showing some classic CSAC mishaps, with A-Team theme.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlOMV9PYj34"]CSAC/Sonnen Farce - YouTube[/ame]

Best part 8.40 for Sonnen’s testosterone was not above normal, followed by classic CSAC bumbling.

My final two points would be. Not sending a nice letter =/= Juicing

If you’re trying to draw a conclusion from a T:E test that’s above 6:1 other than he has taken artificial testosterone , your conclusion is incorrect.

A lot of people get this wrong, mostly because the MMA media is so poor, people look at 16.9:1 and think gee that shouldn’t be there then start speculating.

You can claim Sonnen is abusing drugs to get a competitive edge but we can also do this to any fighter in the sport.
Seriously in Silva 2 and Bisping he was just as relentless, he fought Bisping for 10 minutes took him down three times, fought him in the clinch for a lot of time which is horrible for muscle endurance, and then in the final round he drives him half way across the octagon with a double leg.
When he fought Silva look at all takedown attempts he had in the second round, try to find 3 seconds where he didn't move forward, he didn't exchange punches, he didn't try to drive to Silva, try to push him to that fence, try to get a takedown. He's always attacking, and that's why he's my favourite guy to watch. You can say he exhausted at the end of the Bisping fight but he also was against marquadt, his style requires huge amount of energy.
You ignored one of my other major points. Why can’t I speculate about weight cuts if you are allowed to incorrectly speculate against testosterone?
6) As you can clearly see Chael Sonnen Holding a belt:



Well bringing uninformed MMA fans doesn’t help you much. Infact after Chael beat the Fihlo, Chael’s good friend and Fihlo’s manager Ed Soares mailed the belt to Sonnen.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBhVMSuBmtg"]Fight Camp Insider with Matt Serra - Chael Sonnen Episode - YouTube[/ame]
Again you missed another major point

Saying you find his style of fighting unpleasant to watch, or not finding his persona to be entertaining are valid criticisms, but saying the guy isn't a great fighter is ridiculous, it's like we're living a parallel universe where you can hit a guy 300 times in the head, and he wraps his legs around your head for eight seconds and they declare him the winner.

Well Jon Jones is under no obligation to accept that fight, but when he says he will take on all comes and calls a guy a coward then refuses to fight the guy you can't blame people to have a negative reaction to that.

Sonnen and Henderson have certain similarities such as:
Both highly decorated in Greco, good at controlling people in the upperbody clinch.
Both willing to get in close and throw punches.
Both check their distancing with a leg kick.
Both are hard to KO or TKO.
Both can scramble well (both have used a single leg to stand up)
and most importantly both have a spinning back fist in their arsenal.

Theres is a lot what they do differently though:
Dan has the H-bomb and tough skin.
Sonnen on the other hand is pretty easy to cut, but he I would say he is bigger, faster, has a better gas tank with great reach and wider variety of takedowns.

That's just a rough analysis though.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTWdVq-Ai-U"]Chael Sonnen Post-UFC 104 Interview - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd_oBefEmH4"]Chael Sonnen says he feels horrible following UFC 109 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5gkYDNzb9Y"]UFC 117 Silva vs Sonnen Post Fight Press Conference Highlights - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72GejyPcvao"]UFC 136: Chael Sonnen Calls Anderson Silva a 'Coward' After UFC 136 Win - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8C5n5sbko"]CHAEL SONNEN UFC FOX 2 POST FIGHT INTERVIEW ANDERSON SILVA IN BRAZIL , MICHAEL BISPING MORE - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TDWghd-1C4"]UFC 148 Chael Sonnen's Post-Fight Interview | 7-7-12 - YouTube[/ame]

Chael is polite to the guy he just fought after every fight. Not just ones he loses.

Anyway this is getting off topic here this thread is about the ducking of the former champion Jon 'chicken bones' Jones, in my opinion we should extradite this 'alleged' champion and fraud to West Linn Oregon to face the toughest man God ever made. So the people's champion can throw him on his ass and ram his fist into Jones's face for 25mins or until he gives up.

If you want to discuss all matters Chael Sonnen with me we should probably use http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110502 or you can send me a PM

 

Nope

 

Before you bite, I am totally messing with you. Awesome post.

(vid link removed)

 

Anyone got any idea what ESPN will be showing this Saturday night? The listings still show UFC 151... Plus, they were going to be showing the Prelims live beforehand!! First time I've seen that on ESPN, must be part of the new deal. Gutted...

Well, I've still got it set to record, just incase they put something good on instead!