Joined Judo - Grrrr! Is this instructor crazy?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by jujitsuka07, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Sounds like maki komi where thay just wrap themselves around you and drop the whole bundle to the floor with you underneath.

    Killer technique with no possibility of a breakfall.Had a buddy who used to do it everytime on his way to groundwork. Blast the air out of you then strangle what remained.

    Ah judo the gentle art.:eek:

    regards koyo
  2. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Sounds like a good throw on the 4th Dans part... met some resistance flowed with the energy and executed a good technique...

    I had a similar experience just after passing my Shodan....

    I was paired with a 4th Dan of the panel for my grading and I tried something similar.....countering his throw ...because I thought I could !!

    The makikomi was easily thrown by the 4th Dan who I think made it an harai maikikomi and landed with me knocking every bit of wind and some stuffing too out of me...he then whispered very quietly in my ear ...remember there is always someone more experienced out there !!!

    lesson learned I stopped trying to beat the Sensei's .....that week anyway !!!

    Smile it hurts less ....honest !!!

  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Smile and it hurts less followed by don't worry the mat will break your fall.

    regards koyo
  4. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Sound and solid advice ..Sensei

    Smurf LOL!!!:)
  5. Rhea

    Rhea Laser tag = NOT MA... Supporter

    Sometimes it seems like the mat disappears during landing from certain throws. ;)
  6. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Well yeah, and death, if you want to be all technical and stuff... :p
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    COME ON guys it is a MARTIAL ART. It is supposed to be demanding. Of course we would not consider endangering a beginner.

    But wrapping them in cotton wool is of no value (except for money of course)

    When I asked shihan Chiba how I should breakfall from a particular technique..he threw me with that technique and I learned the ukemi there and then. His mastery of the technique ensured that I was not injured.

    Martial arts training must not break your spirit but it MUST build it.

    regards koyo
  8. Just Guess

    Just Guess Valued Member

    There is no point in building spirit if you break the body.
  9. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Yes but to win a contest must break the spirit and the body !!!

  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    A strong spirit empowers the body.:rolleyes: Again we have NO interest in injuring students. However a timid student or teacher shall change the art to suit their wishes and it is no longer a martial art.

    regards koyo
  11. Storms of War

    Storms of War Valued Member

    Yeesh! Not teaching a student to break falls, because you want them to learn not to fall, is like not teaching a boxer how to bob and weave, parry or block, so that he learns not to get hit. Learning breakfalls helps immensely. If you're afraid of falling, you won't go into techniques full force out of fear of being countered. You'll likely half-ass everything. Also, even if you don't put a lot of emphasis on ukemi (I hate practicing ukemi at the beginning of class, personally), at least teach students not to post. I've never met someone who's natural instinct when falling was to slap the ground, so I feel the whole theory of allowing students to discover breakfalls on their own is utterly rediculous, not to mention dangerous. Every time I see someone fall, their hand and arm shoots straight out to catch themselves. In judo, this is a terrible idea.
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.


    We NEVER teach ukemi as a solo exercise . The ukemi is always taught as part of the technique. The sempai (senior students) have enough control to allow and guide the breakfall which often is quite different for the same technique depending on the speed, power and execution .

    Ara waza techniques do not allow breakfalls other than those guided by the sempai should the kohei (junior student) attempt to fall in a preconceived manner he could be injured.

    I speak mainly in responce to some aikido groups where often they shall fall for ineffective techniques because they have been taught in such a manner.We teach NEVER to throw OR fall unless true unbalancing has been performed.

    below ara waza "ukemi" these CANNOT be practiced solo.

    regards koyo

    Asked a beginner tonight and he said the "sense of danger" keeps him focussed but he has never been injured. He is also developing his own responces (ukemi) to techniques,

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 7, 2008
  13. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Do you perform ara waza on beginner students though?
    I mean really beginner students, not just your average kohei. People who have only been learning for a month or less.

    Also, before students are thrown for the first time, do you or the sempai give them a short lecture on what and what not to do? It only takes a few minutes.

    I like what you do koyo, and it seems to work. But I would have to disagree it's the the best way to start teaching someone who has never thrown or been thrown before, as is the case here in the original post. I believe there needs to be some instruction on how to take a throw safely.
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Righty

    All punches and strikes are done accurately and quite strong BUT at a speed that the biginner can align his body, escape and unbalance. However in the first few sessions he must be shown it is NOT easy to apply techniques as he MUST unbalance us before we will fall. Often he shall use strengthwhich shall be countered. However if the application is "near enough" we will allow him to throw us.

    Similarly when executing techniques on him we shall concentrate more on the PRINCIPLES.Do not get hit, proper body alignment and unbalancing.This shall be done just enough to be effective and he shall be taught the ukemi during this process.

    It is also an invaluable way of training for the sempai where they must execute effective technique without injury to the kohei. This leads to greater sensitivity and understanding of the movement and balance of one who is NOT "assisting" in any way.

    It is some time before the kohei feels that he is becoming effective in his execution of techniques rather than being allowed to perform assisted technique from day one.

    regards koyo

    Ara waza are taught for street defence and will be shown to a student with the proper attitude.
  15. righty

    righty Valued Member

    I think that sounds a lot similar to other processes. And you do start easier so it all works out in the end.
  16. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Judo is kinda like that. Practice throws on each other, only falling if they make you, but you are loose and offering no resistance. No progression in between though, then it's 100%! :D That's not exactly true, you go easier on the newer guys, but you don't make it easy on them, and you hand them nothing on a plate. Hence if they have you hopping on one foot they are doing good.

    I think this is why I think some of the Judo guys are the toughest folks I know, mentally. The skills they have on the mat they had to fight for and take, Koyo's down 8 get up 9 realised every time on the mat. The first time you throw a black belt is quite something, because you worked f'ing hard for it! Those times you had them stumbling, then uncleanly getting them on the mat until you get a good score on them.

    Judo is tough, and that's it's biggest merit. I have never done the solo breakfalls in Judo, I don't think there is any need to. The first process I described above is where you learn to breakfall, but most importantly it is where you learn to keep your partner safe. You don't learn them doing solo breakfalls. Throwing someone is not about tossing them into the air, it's about being safe and making sure the people you through don't hurt themselves. The higher the grade the more crazy you can go because you know s/he has learned to fall progressively as they have learned.

    Why people waste time in martial arts clubs doing solo stuff I never know. Class is where people get together and train together, that time is invaluable. Spend it wisely.
  17. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    Interesting reading.

    I have never understood the slapping the matt thing. Have you tried training outdoors/ uneven surface or on a hard floor? If you slapped a rock or a glass bottle, or a piece of metal, that wouldn't be very effective.

    I train on both matts and a hard floor and my ukemi is the same for both.

    Why is this method taught?
  18. SgtGF

    SgtGF Part time lurker

    Slapping your hand out distributes the shock a little more and can give you a stabilizer to help with a back roll. It was taught a long time ago in Bujinkan for 9th kyu breakfalls, and occasionally it still is for beginners, but usually is moved away from fairly quickly.

    ...leastwise that's why it was taught to me, I don't have a lot of Judo experience.
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Judo is practiced on a mat therefor the slap is an obvious element in the training. As for is the other guy who has to worry about the breakfall.:evil:

    regards koyo
  20. Devildog2930

    Devildog2930 Teneo vestri ego.

    How hard should you be throwing in practice? I know Judo is a full contact art and in competition you should be going full on but when practicing the techniques. Uke although not just falling for the sake of it is still leaving himself open for the technique therefore should tori be applying full power to the technique.
    I ask because when practicing a variation of Osoto gari with a high rank the other day my partner threw me with such force that even though I tried to break fall correctly I ended up bruising my lower back quite badly and also receiving a whiplash effect to my neck.

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