Join Locks for takedowns - How effective?

I've taken a bit of kung fu, wrestled in college and currently am taking karate.
It's obvious in MMA, that joint locks on the ground work for submissions. However, for takedowns, you never see joint locks in MMA.
Now this could be for the reasons of: 1. wrist locks are illegal in most mma 2. opponents are looking for joint locks, and can avoid them (no element of surprise) 3. They are not effective in MMA for takedowns.

I bring up MMA only because, it is hard to witness a real joint lock takedown. Perhaps they are effective in self defense but not in competition?

Cheers

 

They are incidental if not accidental, and also VERY hard to land on an individual who has a level of ability. They also are bloody hard to get on gloves!

 

This. Also, forcing a joint lock usually doesn't work, so you'll have to find some means of unbalancing a person, which is very easy, or down right a pain in the ****.

 

Rudai123

I believe all the reason listed above are correct. Self-defense and sport fighting are two different this. While most things that are useful in sport fighting are useful in self defense, the same is not true in reverse. I teach Hapkido, and we use certain live drills to isolate standing joint locks. During free sparring we are allowed to use any techniques, but pretty much you can only get an standing arm bar from time to time. Standing locks require either a seize (very hard to do) or else they exploit an over commitment (like a lapel grab).

A student of mine got into a fight and the first thing that happened was that his opponent his clothing. On the other hand, when I spar this guy, I know not to grab his uniform with both hands.

EDIT: and what everyone else says about the unbalancing thing is true, as well.

 

Principle: Always stun or unbalance the opponent before attempting a lock or take down.

 

You are never going to get a wrist lock on a person wearing those gloves - and don't forget all that taping under the glove you don't normally which the primary reason of using is to support the wrist and keep it relatively straight.

Regarding standing joint locks there are normally more higher percentage moves that can be used.

Don't know about that though. You should ask Karo Parisian.

 

I'd like to note that wrist locks are NOT illegal in MMA, however I've only seen two ever attempted: Royce Gracie vs. Akebono and Roxanne Modafferi in her second match with Jennifer Howe.

Having tried both wrist locks on guys wearing grappling gloves with hand wraps, and standing locks in general, here's what I've found:

-flexing the wrist to affect a lock, like a "goose neck", is almost impossible.

-rotating the wrist around the axis of the forearm, like Aikido's "Sankyo", is unaffected by the gloves and wraps.

-standing locks in general are VERY hard to get, and the smaller the joint is, the harder it is to isolate. However, it is possible to set up some straight arm bars (wakigatame style, for example) as well as bent arm locks from the clinch.

In MMA, Kazushi Sakuraba was well-known for his double wrist lock/Kimura control, which he occasionally used to bring his opponent to the ground. Karo Parisyan pulled off a Kimura into a rolling throw vs. Dave Strasser in his first fight in the UFC. And Shinya Aoki cracked Keith Wisniewski's arm in his first fight in Shooto with a Wakigatame takedown.

 

Waki gatame - arm lock takedown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k#t=1m30s

Kimura's can also be done from standing as a takedown.

Wristlocks can be utilised well when fighting for grips, relatively useful to know in amateur MMA because alot of guys arent great with standup clinch fighting at that level.

 

That was beautiful

 

very nicely done!

here is another beauty!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTqKePonjg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTqKePonjg[/ame]

 

That was a beauty Hannibal!
He was using a catch wrestling technique!!!


One thing i have tried using wristlocks with is pretty crude.
The same motion to catch kicks in muay thai and lock the leg under the armpit - i use the same motion to catch peoples wrists under my armpit and wristlock them when they're putting in/pulling out underhooks.
Sure it isn't a take down but it causes enough pain and distraction to shoot for a shoulder wheel.
The arm is in the right place for it.
It doesn't work well on guys with a wrestling background because they're quite committed but everyone else has a problem with it.

 

Very nice example.

I'm seeing a hyperextension of the elbow before the take down. I know striking the arm to hyperextend the elbow works to stun the arm (or worse) before take down as I do that often in training.

Because I know the hyperextension works to stun the arm before take down, am I seeing that in the video correctly as what is happening or am I just assuming that was what was done based on my own experience?

What are others seeing?

 

Maybe this will help you to understand it.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fWh3hopvBY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fWh3hopvBY[/ame]
It can be used as a "hook" (in catch wrestling terms) as Aoki used it, or it can be used as a takedown (like the guy in the above video does with the first bit but you can sweep from the closest leg from there) or it can be used as a straight submission.

 

Good example of a lock turned into a throw.

Do you think that was basically a variation of Sumi-gaeshi, leveraging the arm due to the opponent's head being on the outside instead of inside?

 

I WUS GONNA SAY THAT! >.>

 

Thanks for the video. I'm familiar with the technique.

What I was getting at was that that when I apply the technique, I first hyper extend the opponent's elbow across my hip or my chest as an atemi or by striking the arm with my elbow and forearm. This stuns the arm (or worse) and allows for the rolling arm bar and takedown to follow.

I was asking if others say the elbow hyperextension down quickly (e.g. like atemi) done at the beginning making the technique more effective before the takedown?

 

BLOODY TWIN!
btw, tickets are on sale at the door for glasgow open. so im headin there.
you should too.
We've got one guy competing that stands a good chance of dominating his weight class. I'm going over standing-kimura/double-wristlock and "hooks" with him before wrestling tomoro.

One thing i want to drill him through are dirty (but legal) tactics and submissions.

 

I assume so... it might be difficult to get the arm down and the rest of him to follow otherwise...

 

Couple things.

1- standing joint locks can be hard to control a person with. If you don't care what happens to your opponant and you do it to cause immediate damage it's a different story. Most don't want to compete that way.

2- It's tough to make a trained and controlled fighter set himself up for a standing lock where as wild fighters do it all the time. Competitive fighters train for what will come up consistently in competition. That means striking combos and competition practical takedows. In a real fight you can't go in thinking I'm going to throw this lock takedown combo now. It just won't work like that, at least not often. You have to take advantage of what presents it self but if training those techniques isn't a huge part of your art you probably won't react quickly enough when the opportunity arises.