JFJKD/OJKD/JFGF/NCGF defense against horizontal fist punch

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Gong_Sau_Rick, Jul 20, 2008.

  1. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Intercepting a horizontal fist punch can be very different from intercepting a vertical fist punch. Quite simply because they are structurally very different (for those of you who can appreciate this comment: one is tan sau structure science the other is fok sau structure).

    I currently use a particular interception technique to deal with a horizontal fist punch (e.g. a boxer's jab and right cross) about 80% of the time. However I'm curious as to how Mr. Lee went about solving this problem as this particular technique is apparently not in any of the stuff he taught in the US.

    So for the the JFJKD, OJKD, JFGF and NCGF trained guys out there: someone throws a jab or a cross at your face, how do you go about intercepting and hitting them without getting hit yourself?

    If you can point me to some pictures or video that would be good.

  2. JeetKuneDero

    JeetKuneDero Valued Member

    Worh researching: By 71', Lee no longer intercepted at movement but at "emotional tensness," at intention.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  3. Emil

    Emil Valued Member

    There is very little point trying to develop a way to deal with a horizontal fist in a different way than a vertical fist as a punch is thrown so fast that fannying around over which one is which will just get you hit. Bruce used a sliding arm leverage technique for intercepting towards his later training days, which in theory eliminates that problem as it is applicable to either fist principle. of course there is then the problem of working the sliding arm leverage, which is very difficult to pull off against a competent puncher.

    Of course, when it comes to the stop hit, the fist doesn't really matter.

    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  4. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    I understand what you're saying and it makes sense, however it is extremely easy to pick up because of the position of the elbow and the shoulder and pretty much the entire body when it is thrown, I've never had a problem with it. On top of that I don't need a visual cue since as when I go to strike anyway and the arms clash I'll make the right move. Also the technique I use does in fact work against all straight lines.

    Ok, I'm going to assume by sliding arm leverage you mean simply sliding your arm over the attacker's punch taking him off line in the middle of the journey to strike him. If this is what you're talking about this is literally the first thing you learn in my school after you learn the footwork and straight punch.

    Ok I would like to know.

    1. Is there a Cantonese term for the shape of the arm that you are using to slide over.

    2. If you can't answer that what shape is your "sliding arm", in that your palm is facing down or sideways, elbow out or towards the center are you leaning forward or sitting down. Do you need to flank to the side to make it work, is your backhand doing anything?

    KK Thanks!
  5. SiAiS

    SiAiS Moved on

    The best way to defend against it, is to become perfectly still, do not move and you let your training handle the situation for you. Taisen Deshimaru talks about this spirit very clearly in his book "The Zen way to Martial Arts" prior to that you make your tools really fast, springy and powerful, then [depending upon escalation, assume the worst case] when you feel that imagine in the moment you are like Wolverine, imagine you have &*^"£$*^"£$ great claws and you tear the opponent to pieces.
  6. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider


    Anyway maybe I should give a bit more background to help get the ball rolling.

    The particular technique I use works fine, but I have a gut feeling that it can be improved. I've been playing with it for the part two weeks and have now taken an entirely different approach of looking into similar systems and see how they approach the problem.

    I have acquired three possible responses from NCGF that have proved to be extremely interesting, I'm going to try them out on some training partners next class. I've also going to try out an old western boxing defense modified to use within the wing chun structure.
  7. Semper Fi

    Semper Fi Valued Member

    You can slip the punch entirely and get a shot in the ribs or follow the arm up to his throat/face with an open hand shot. The more I train the more I am trying to work with just evading. It can be daunting at times, but it gives you a bit more options. I got really comfortable with parrying with the rear and going on a reference point.
  8. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    Tan sao and punch,**** sao and punch, pak sao, lop sao

    it all depends on what type of energy the OP is giving you
  9. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    QFT, thanks for the simple and direct answer. ;)

    When you Tan Da a straight punch is you tan sau sinking into your body or is it shooting forwards?
  10. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    it should shoot out from your centerline just enough to derail the incoming punch but far enough so that you don't get jammed
  11. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    You're also flanking them at an angle slightly right?
  12. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    always try gain groung on your op, the angular movement should be just enough so you can effectively deliver the tan and the strike at the same time
  13. Stevie Bhoy

    Stevie Bhoy Valued Member

    Im just a beginner however my perception would be that it really depends on the situation. For example, when someone throws a ball at you, the normal reaction would be to catch the ball without thinking.

    Food for thought !!
  14. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    You're dead on mate.

    In reality I'm just going to blast my hands forward go for gold, if nothing gets in the way I say "cool" and land a hit, if something gets in the way I say "thank you" trap and land a hit.

    My chi sau training serves me in this case. For example I could just shoot forward an open hand and a horizontal punch gets in the way I'm in contact pushing into my opponent's center of mass but the hand has not slipped over and controlled yet, my chi sau reflexes unconsciously change my structure I slip over and send the forward force of the attack into my stance and down to the floor whilst simultaneously or immediately following with a vertical punch to the jaw-line as I religiously drive through him with my stance and footwork.

    However I'm just thinking very theoretically and abstracted at the moment, thinking about the ideal or perfect situation how things should happen in a non-dynamic one dimensional exchange. Just interested how BL approached the problem with different footwork and one less structure.

    My suspicion at the moment is a reinterpretation of lap sau, just kind of using brute force and heavy angle changes with pak sau and a higher usage of bong sau.
  15. Stevie Bhoy

    Stevie Bhoy Valued Member

    Cool. I liked your statement I've highlighted in bold. To me thats what JKD is all about. Straight to the point with no messing which is in my opinion what Bruce intended. No flowery bull.:)
  16. Just Guess

    Just Guess Valued Member

    It's best not to over think this sort of thing. Just keep your hands up and your arms in tight, and use them as a shield. Probably the best purely defensive technique is shown in Crazy Monkey Boxing.

  17. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    While I do find Crazy Monkey interesting, (for it's square on wing chunishness) and appreciate the input. I'm actually after JFJKD aggressive interceptions against straight horizontal punches.

    I actually like Hakarac Boxing's (a WC-boxing hybrid system) covering-shielding defense better, which is called I think "under the radar" basically the same thing as in the clip but instead of holding your ground and push the arms up.; you go forward ducking under the opponents barrage and smash your head into his chest. There used to be some pictures of it on the net but I can't find them. A passive-aggressive solution!
  18. Just Guess

    Just Guess Valued Member

    Well back when I was training at a JKD school in their Jun Fan class I was mostly taught to parry a punch to the face, boxing style. Personally I think this would take a bit too much finesse without gloves on and that the covering up solution just works better.
  19. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Actually, sounds a bit like JFD... Joe Frazier Do. I couldn't find any illustrations of techniques either, but their website looks interesting. Although, unless my connection's crappier than usual, which is a possibility, many of their links are broken.

  20. february

    february Valued Member

    I agree with Bells in that it depends what kind of energy you get from your opponent. On the flipside it isn't as easy to predict or adapt to the energy recieved from a really competent puncher (e.g. a boxer), i.e. you're not always going to be able to get a bridge or connection to interpret your opponents energy. With that in mind, I'd say that speaking for myself, I wouldn't concentrate so much on what the feed is (e.g. a vertical or horizontal fist structure), but more on the reaction. My preference would go be in the following order, whilst keeping in mind the principle of no passive moves and from a purely JFJKD perspective:

    a)Stop hit (intercept at intent or preperation)

    b)Cut through the punch using sliding arm leverage

    c)Slip and hit or a split entry

    d)Tan/Bong/Lop/**** Sao or trap and hit

    With regards to covering (e.g. CM style), I suspect that anyone who has sparred hard with a competent boxer will tell you it has it's advantages. The method looks similar to KFM and and some of the destructive cover from the Filipino arts, but I digress.

    Edit: Rick, with regards to the type structure used in a sliding arm leverage interception check out this vid by Tim Tackett.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2008

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