Japanese martial arts VS Chinese martial arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by JediKnight25, May 21, 2006.

  1. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    agreed, i will try not to feed the troll to much.

    but i must admit i do enjoy a bit of troll baiting sometimes.
  2. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    I'd love to train iron crotch with a troll.. I go first! :D
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    He does seem more interested in arguing with you guys than debating the subject i must admit :confused:
  4. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    Still doesn't change the fact someday I'll have my mantis ass eventually tapped out by some BJJ fighter, or my head kicked off by someone really good at TKD. Murphys law dictates you will get the hell knocked out of you repeatedly in this business.
  5. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Then you should stop making comments like this one:

    :D :D
  6. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter


    Let us get started here.

    We ll (sorry my keyboard is messed up and my apostrophe key doesnt work - it starts a "find" and its ****ing me off.

    I pretty much agree with declan on anything regarding chi and. Hes got the best explanations that Ive heard - Ill even be nice and go find the significant posts that have helped me to understand what chi is. There are more out there if you want to go look.


    I would think of it as making the 2x4 flexible enough to whip someone across the face. I think the analogy about each segment contributing energy to the next.

    I've done a bit of reading, and have a general idea of what ging is. Really, I am pretty ignorant. I haven't been at it long, so my ideas aren't the be all end all. If I'm not mistaken, the literal translation of ging is power or energy. I think Infrazel told me that. The general consensus is that ging is refined motion. It's supposed to be the skill that your body attains from doing an action properly, relaxed, over and over again. So if you are a janitor, and you practice holding your broom a certain way every day, your body will optimize it's movements and move together to better push the broom around.


    I don't know about any of this stuff. I've had no education in bio-whatever.

    That being said, I have to treat all this as BS untill I see some kind of source that confirms some of this stuff - studies, surveys, whatever. It's nothing personal. It's just that the internet is crammed with cronies who have no scruples, and will say anything to wind you up. :)

    Another gem regarding qi and adrenaline from Declan:


    It's AROUND your center of balance, but it's not your center of balance. People can move their dantien around at will. Depending on what style of CMA you study, the science behind utilizing that knowledge in combat is not "obvious" at all. :D

    Your center of balance is a point that is based around the distribution of weight upon your body.

    All that stuff you talk about spears and bed of nails and whatever - that's not chi, it's just a parlour trick. There are plenty of people who can do that without chi kung.


    Is this your school?


    It's funny that you talk about how you could beat up any karate guy, yet the school with the same address as yours is listed as a Kenpo KARATE school. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

    Anyway, I think a lot of the stuff you posted is pretty off the mark. I agree with Declan on almost everything he writes. I think he is an excellent representative for CMA. he doesn't post much, but his stuff is always on point. He's a real master of an authentic, effective Chinese style.

    A lot of what you are talking about is not unique. Pivoting the hips, standing up on the ball of the foot to give power. It's classic stuff. Sounds like western boxing. I personally don't think that Bruce Lee is an excellent source for martial arts info, personally.
  7. goju-aiki

    goju-aiki New Member

    I dunno if this is relevant, but juz gonna say it anyway :)

    I am not sure what sort of kungfu everyone is talking about but as a chinese I know that there primarily 2 sort of "kingfu". One is called tao lu which essentialy teaches form and the acrobatic style you see. Example of which is Chang quan aka long fist. Another "style" which more for practical fighting and incorporates mostly the essential part of combat is San Shou or San Da. I got this information from a VCD about san shou, not sure if it is accurate. It seems that the Chinese military came out with this system to train effective combat for their soldiers. Again I dunno if this is accurate, please do correct me if i am wrong.

    I learn Goju Ryu style of karate and Aikido. Erm.. I have never been taught to fight rigid, and punching from my hips. Mostly I have been told that I should relax and snap hard with hip rotation. I sparred many times with a friend in Wing Chun before, and the rules we used are simple - dun hit the groin and no eye gourging. Of cos we dun go for the throat to kill each other as well. The outcome of the match is always about 50-50...depending on who is more alert or in better form that day.

    It would be nice if everyone stop bashing other arts, I supposed they exist for different reasons. :)
  8. DRMA

    DRMA Valued Member

    Well he is well know for winning the national karate chapionship in japan, OK that may not mean anything to you but he is also famous for fighting in something like 270 chalenge matches against any style for which he is undefeated and fighting and being undefeated in the 300 man kumite. I really don't know how you could say he would be a joke in a fight.

    Then you complain people don't take you ability seriously when you so blatently ridicule others ability.

    As for the royce vs kung fu videos. Royce should be embarised about bragging about beating people with so little ability who are obviously not even using kung fu to fight with. If you are going to post vidoes showing how good your style is at least do it against somebody who is half decent.
  9. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    You mean this obese karateka bullfighter?


    Yeah...real obese there...

    In all liklihood, Oyama would have slammed someone like you in a bareknuckle match.

    Oh, and did I mention his students kicked the crap out of CMAists in bareknuckle competition?

    Keep trying, Morgan.
  10. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    wow.. morgan.. stop mate.. just stop
    not knowing who oyama is and making MA a career seems well....
    you have just lost any remaining credibility you had with me
    you have spewed enough ignorance and cliché remarks at this point
    please... please stop
    you are making my brain bleed
    if you really are a MA teacher
    then by all means educate yourself in the broader context inside of which you art can be viewed
    if you really do teach I actually feel sorry for the perspective that must be being passed down to you students...
    if you like, I'd be happy to pass along a "suggested reading list"
    that would help give you a basic understanding of the arts and their differences and histories....
    seriously mate, you need it..... i do not mean to insult you by saying this
    it is simply the god's honest truth
    Last edited: May 28, 2006
  11. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    That's right. All of those guys just stood there and waited patiently for Royce to take them down.
  12. TigerKai

    TigerKai Valued Member

    Taylor's Kempo was the last resident of the studio. He was arrested for cocaine distribution at the school. This happened a couple of years ago. The new owner teaches escrima, another guy teaches a specialized kung fu and another guy teaches Aikdo. I rented half of the building out for my lessons.

    Also, Kempo seems decent and is definately much faster than the Karate I've seen.

    Here is your Oyama


    Declan's opinions on blood flow and Qi are pretty much dead on correct. The adrenaline factor is also true, what we associate with our nervous system determines our behavior. Otherwise people wouldn't have induced flashbacks of their family being executed when they see an ice cream cone for example. You can plant seeds within yourself to reprogram your responses. Effectiveness is determined by raw will and wit.

    I know the basics and history of many martial arts. I don't study Oyama folklore. I wouldn't expect you to believe mythical stories about my sifu's sifu either. Oyama has been put on a pedestal and worshipped by alot of karateka because he is the father.

    I have developed my opinions about Karate ineffectiveness because I actually started out in Karate. I was up for my green belt testing and met my Kung Fu sifu who opened my eyes to a new world. I had alot of natural ability and was faster and better in sparring against some of the kung fu guys. After learning just the basics in kung fu, my fighting game was improved considerably. There were many bad habits I had adopted from Karate that were quickly discarded. I have also met with a Tae Kwon Do master and their punches do come from the hip.

    If you're a karateka and your style isn't robotic and your punches aren't from the hip I apologize and commend you. I don't hate Japanese people or even people that practice Karate and Tae Kwon Do, especially if you're saying it is totally different than from my assumptions. I'm hoping you are a great fighter.

    The Shuri Ryu Karate McDojos in my town have made a mockery of Karate if this is the case. All of my experience with them is punches from the hip and robotic katas and self-defense simulations. At the tournament I competed in with my Karate training, when I was about 11, most of the people there wearing a Karate gi were doing the same stuff.

    None of the stuff I'm posting is new stuff, I'm saying it is all used in kung fu simultaneously in a strike. It might seem like I'm making "sweeping generalizations" but I'm operating based on the knowledge that I've gathered from my Karate experience and from watching the studios in my area.

    The Karate that I've experienced does contain elements of pivoting and relaxing but not coordinated together. If you watch someone walk there are elements of each happening. You have to relax and explode into a strike with the "whipping factor" while using the pivot and breathing out properly. This takes alot of coordination to master. When you do this, you can apply it to nearly every strike, you can lunge into a linear strike when you cannot pivot but it isn't as effective as a combat tool.

    With the chi/ging applied properly many people throw the shoulder out of place if they aren't physically conditioned. Tendons and muscles have to be used to the stress.

    In Karate we had an exercise called thousand hands or something like that. From a wide horse stance you exhale a full breath gradually as you go through a one-handed figure-8 shuto drill. That isn't the ging I'm refering too, neither is the relaxation that takes place in our antagonistic muscles that allow us to move.

    The comment about vital strikes and BJJ: Obviously anyone can do groin and eye strikes, this isn't the arguement. The problem with street fighting BJJ is that many of the positions and submissions require a setup that blatantly exposes a vital. You are better off knowing BJJ than not though, it is a great system. My point is that you shouldn't try to ground & pound a good streetfighter on the sidewalk because octagon training opens you up to getting blasted in the groin, throat and eyes when you never have to worry about it in MMA competition.

    I'm not trolling for attention or a fake person. I'm being demonized as the reason for CMA supremacy. Take a look in my town, it isn't me you should be upset with if I'm totally wrong, it is these McDojo jokers that make a bad name for Karate and seem to infest every rural town.
  13. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    wow.. just wow
    ok.. first of all.. there is more to MAs than might exist in your town
    so because there might not be styles or a teacher there that represent a style well,
    that is no reason to write off entire categories (families) of MA
    the same can be said of CMA in many areas probably, no?
    CMA is too broad a term to be described with any movement generalizations
    Kung fu can be linear, direct and rooted (WC) or aerial, acrobatic and have large movements (ie long-fist or more northern styles... even competitive Wushu)
    you have san shou fighters and Tai chi as training methods
    ready to have your mind blown???
    the SAME can be said of karate
    you have KK guys best rep'ed by diado jutsu (say what you've said here to one of them you putz)
    and you also have softer slower paced styles that emphasize learning more with forms....
    you have JJ styles and their descendants that further round out and actually more truly represent Japanese styles (since Karate comes from the island Okinawa) and they range from JJ to Sumo to kendo.... i have a feeling a good judo guy would waste you like royce did the KFool in the video....
    the world of MA is bigger than your little rural town
    the regions have a far wider diversity than the narrow-minded generalizations you are spewing.....
    you should know all this
    let us know what happens with your MMA debut..
    I have a feeling it will be an eye-opener
    (more like closer actually) for you

    you are being demonized because you are so obviously wrong to anyone who has trained and loves MAs for longer than a year....
    and you refuse to say... "my bad", "sorry, I guess those sweeping generalizations looked pretty stupid didn’t they?"

    try that one.. and MAYBE you'll eventually convince some of us you have a clue...
    but you've done irreparable harm to your reputation with this thread IMHO
  14. TigerKai

    TigerKai Valued Member

    Here is a good kung fu fighter. What would happen in a clash with Karate or TKD or BJJ?


    trapping, speed of ging, kung fu movement that coordinates the entire body into the attack, very different than the Karate that I've seen


    confidence in his balance :)


    spiritual, beautiful flowing and pivoting movement

    If his life was threatened, what could this kung fu man do at full-go? :)
    Last edited: May 28, 2006
  15. Neil-o-Mac

    Neil-o-Mac The Rev

    why post a link to the same video three times?

    And standing on a wall doing a form is one thing, but actually being in a fight is a whole other kettle of fish.


    If youre referring to the demo with the tall white guy fighting the short asian that was as bad as the Mas Oyama tape you posted. In a REAL fight punches are not thrown that slow. The Kung Fu guy had some pretty techniques, but its safe to say you'll see those in a movie before you'll see them in a real fight.
  17. goju-aiki

    goju-aiki New Member

    Erm.. Sorry to have to rebutt ya to the video clip. What you see is a practise of tao lu which is not a very good representation in terms of actual fighting style, perhaps san da or san shou may depict what you want to say more accurately in terms of effective fighting. Karate I know perhaps is quite a different one from what I think u have seen. Our style consists of many combination whic would include snapping and pivoting as you said. Many hours are put into training so that we can put it together effectively in a right combination. Alot also goes into the footwork of moving around in a circular fashion or evasive movement diangonally.

    I don't think of myself as any great fighter and any fight i get into is purely sparring or competition matches. I havent never been tested on the streets and I certainly hope I never will. I personally have never seen effective CMA in action other than San Da or San shou, and I personally think that they are great but I wouldn't go as far as saying it is the best style in the world. I have seen Muay Thai fighters demolished san shou fighters, and vice versa. I have seen Karateka owned by San shou fighters and Vice versa too.
  18. TigerKai

    TigerKai Valued Member

    The only thing you seem to want to do is insult me and hope that I'll be beaten in my match. My "little rural town" is average sized and the area I'm speaking about encompasses Logan, Lancaster, Nelsonville, Athens, McArthur, Wellston and Jackson Ohio. "I have a feeling" That clears it up completely. Instead of dreaming up hypothetical encounters where I would "get wasted," I suggest posting an intelligent reply to discuss the arts instead of dumping your problems here. Do you feel better after insulting me? Do you need a therapist? I think so...

    I don't hate Japanese arts, I don't like the examples of KARATE I have seen. I said nothing of Kendo or Judo, etc.

    I would gladly discuss martial arts, train, aid and accept tips from a Karate person. I'm not out there talking down about Karate to my students, I use my time with them more efficiently than to bad mouth other styles.

    You haven't stated anything I wasn't aware of. I don't go around seeking fights. I will defend the reputation of my style and CMA in general because I'm fighting for my family, my sifu and his lineage. That is why I will fight anyone that wants to put it to the test or try to devalue my style. It isn't because I think I'm the best fighter. In fact, I'm a very agreeable person and would get along quite well with stylists of contrasting opinion. We can disagree but you don't have to insult me or research my background for ammunition to fire off in your next post.

    I would like to discuss the subject of this thread in a mature manner.
  19. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hmmm... seems to me that Sifumorgan comes from the same bloodline as Manabimashoman. :D
  20. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    No you wouldn't, otherwise you wouldn't have started off in the way you did why should anyone try to engage you in an intelligent debate when every post you've made so far in this (and other threads) gets a consistently negative reaction from the whole forum.

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