Izumizu-ha

No disagreement there, Rebel. It is good advice, however my point being that regardless of the quality of advice, given the readership of MAP members and guests, and the possibility that some idealistic kid may come along and try these things has consequences...the same consequences that were mentioned to me in reference to my postings.

Again, not an excuse for what I posted, just that the standard applies to everyone regardless of rank, knowledge, experience given the fact that we really have no idea who may be reading these posts.

As for your question about grabbing, I hardly ever grab at all. Please do not mistake this for not having contact.

 

Maybe he can't. I know some people who can. Fortunately I don't run around asking for people to be banned just because I don't like what they post or I think they are flat out wrong. On the other hand if I consider the bad advice being given out to be of a serious enough nature. I might just be inclined to get something done about it. Which doesn't have to be a ban. I do have other options.

Now lets be clear. I'm not about to have Izu banned just because he won't tell Dave his grade.

Incidentally. Izu is a 4th dan. I'm pretty sure he said so somewhere in another thread.

 

I just want it on the record that I haven't requested this either.

 

Note that the advice is not saying never grab. It is just saying to stun/unbalance (with atemi) before you grab. So this same advice works for Judo and FMA as well as Aikido. It is not going against what is taught in either. Yes, even Judo includes aspects of atemi in technique.

Otherwise, I see what you mean, but there actually is not a standard that applies to everyone other that maybe the TOS. I remember a few times when koyo had posted about principles and as he usually did, attached a picture that demonstrated said principle... now in these few times I was confused by the picture and I had to ask he about it. Koyo would post a reply to me or a PM that helped me understand what was going on. Whether or not I agreed with it (I usually did agree 100% of the time but anyway), at least I knew what I was getting into.

Here is the difference as I see it Izu. When asked about your practice of striking a coin, your reply did not help me understand what was going on any better than before. You did mention somewhere that the coin was the size of the enemy's thumb. But my questions/comments were that I believed the practice of striking at a coin (was it 1000 times a day you said) could build bad habits.

You did not get that striking a coin is not a problem but that you had said somewhere that you did this 1000 times a day. Holy moly, that's going to put it into muscle memory. If I am doing 1000 cuts a day, I want to make sure every single one of them is using good form as would be used in a real situation with an opponent (except as noted by Dave that it is different because it is solo and not with a partner), therefore I would not want to mess up what I know to work from practice with the muscle memory developed from an isolated drill... the two should complement each other, not contradict each other.

So I question the value of said exercise done 1000 times a day. I am not questioning the exercise, that is up to you.

 

Martial arts hurts. People need to accept there is an element of risk involved they need to assess.

There's also a huge difference between experienced practitioners giving out good advice on how to train properly and what that training should include at what level and some unaccredited random Joe passing off some misunderstood half baked musings on what he does in his spare time.

And then there's the down right silliness of an individual who clearly has very little to no experience of swordsmanship trying to argue with members of the forum who are known to be experienced swordsmen who have deeply immersed themselves in Japanese culture. Which really just speaks for it's self.

 

Really, I said that? Very interesting.

I understand the differences that you point out, however if some idealistic kid reads a thread or gets some advice in tanto self defense, and winds up trying it and gets hurt, or hurts someone else, it won't matter at that point who that information came from. The chance and the cosequence existed since day one map when the first person started talking martial application and technique.

It wouldn't matter if it was a person with zero experience, or o sensei here on map. There is no way to tell what the guests are doing with the info they reciece here good bad or indifferent.

 

And that kid could equally hop on over to YouTube and get video demos on how to hurt themselves. Or they might just get hit by a bus crossing the street.

It does matter who gives out the advice. Everybody posting on MAP is responsible for what they post. People who know what they are doing generally give out good advice in the proper manner. So they don't get sued when someone does something they shouldn't. Others are not so careful.

 

This may be a bigger problem today than say 40 years ago, but I've read martial arts books published 40 years ago that showed pictures of techniques that just are awful... it is obvious to me that the authors of the books either were completely cluless or more likely, the stuff is really watered down for the general public.

Izu, do you realize how much of what is posted here is really generalized and watered down compared to the actual practice/technique? I would say a lot of it is. So, for example, koyo liked the hammer fist to the eye... well in most places he just said hammer fist to keep it generic... and I never seen him post the nature of the hammer fist (e.g. raking with the knuckle or rather than empty hand, actually having a weapon).

I think I describe more detailed technique than a lot on the forum and I'm holding back a lot that those in the know already know. Not secret knowledge, but stuff that you should learn from face-to-face instruction, not experiment on your own from something you read on the Internet.

So I agree we have a responsibility to look out for others, but I think we have to be able to communicate effectively also and thus some level of details need to be provided. I hope that anyone who is wanting to try any of this out seek more information and do the research, I'm sure many here are happy to help out and answer sincere questions.

Hey, did you know that Osensei did not like having pictures taken of him doing technique. He actually changed the technique so what we see on film is not the same as what he did in the dojo when there were no cameras. He watered it down for the camera not to reveal things so that they could not be stolen. This is what I read in an interview with one of his students, if you want me to find that interview, I can point you to it for reference, just give me some time to dig it up.

 

Lame excuse.

If your background was credible you wouldn't be clutching at an excuse to justify the poor content of your posts, if your background actually matched the expectations of the supposed quality of your advice, you'd be more than happy to discuss what style of aikido you study and the rank you hold.

There's an obvious miss-match, it's obvious to several of us here, you won't admit it, but you can't avoid it either.

 

Well, then Dave, as far as you are concerned then I have zero experience, zero rank, and zero knowledge of any martial art at all. I will still be here on MAP, and you will still be following me around, posting after my posts, and refuting what it is that I say. It will not change the fact that I will say something from time to time, I suppose I'll get used to being in your sights. It will be kind of fun. We can be like a team, like Starsky and Hutch.

 

I don't know if there's some "cultural difference" twixt the US and UK as regards asking people their years of study but saying this is considered poor form in the States is nonsense.This has to be one of the most common questions practitioners ask each other in the US.At least that's been my experience/observation with/of both folks from different parts of the US and the many people from other countries I've met/observed over the years.Never noticed people taking offense if asked their rank either,and amongst practitoners this is general "shop talk".They're both certainly legit questions if one is considering studying w/someone.

I'll own that this "poor form" idea may have been your experience/observation or what you were told if you didn't get out and about much.Which may be the case- have you never noticed that it is not uncommon in the US for people of dan grade in various systems to have little stripes on the end of their belts denoting their degree?They're certainly displaying/wearing their rank,even if it's not by way of a patch.

The intent of this post isn't to try and get you to reveal anything about yourself which you haven't already,just saying your statement that such questions are bad form in the US doesn't hold water.I haven't noticed any change in the cultural mores in this matter over the years.

 

Like I said, just the way I came up in the martial arts, and what my isntructors imparted to me, even as I started aikido. I don't ask people what their rank is, never even consider it. In all of my 800+ posts I have never asked what rank someone holds here or in anyother forum on MAP. There is a reason for that.

As far as stripes go, that is relevant to the dojo/system/orginazation in which they train. Incedentally, since there are different requirements in many organizations to obtain rank, rank in one dojo may not be the equivelant to rank in another dojo.

If someone tells you their rank, that's one thing. Asking them, or asking how long they have studied and trained is quite another.

 

1) Asking or not,that's your choice.Just your statement wasn't true as a declaration of the way things are in the US.You didn't state specifically that's how you were taught,but I did take that into consideration.See my 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph.

2)I'm well aware ranks may not equate from one school to another.
That's one reason years count for something.

3)Quite another? That's your personal outlook/conduct,again it's your choice.That's all.I refer you to the 1st paragraph in my post on this matter.Perhaps your experience is more insular than mine?

 

Then you missed this in the post in which you quoted me:

Anyways, about the rank thing...maybe it is just a cultural difference between the US and the UK/Europe, but as I came up in the martial arts it was considered bad form to actually ask questions like what rank are you, how long have you been studying and so on. I guess here in the US, for the most part, we do not wear our rank and years in training or style like a badge or patch on our shoulder (though some may wear a patch indicating what style they practice, this is just something for that dojo to sell and make money on IMO).

Years training in one school may not equate to years spent training at another school, hence the rank differences as well.

Certainly my choice.

As for my guess as to cultural differences, I couldn't really come up with a different explination of why that may have been instilled in myself, but not in others. As for "shop talk" generally the folks I train with/teach and/or hang out with already know my rank. I have never been asked what rank I am while attending an aikido seminar where there are far more people than just the ones I train with / teach.

Not trying to discount what you say, just explaining the differences in my insular training

 

A lot of B.S. teachers filter that mindset down to their students. Such gems as "our history is unimportant", "rank means nothing, it is only ability that counts" etc etc.

If I went to a school with an intention to join, I would be asking:

• "how long has the school been running?"
• "how long have you been practicing?"
• "how long have you been teaching?"
• "what is your grade?"
• "who awarded your grade?"
• "who is your teacher?"
• "do you still train with your teacher?"
• "what teaching licence/permission did he give you?"
• "what is the club history?"

If I got an answer I wasn't happy with, that's no problem - but if I got answers that were evasive or the person was uncomfortable with answering (or refuses to answer even), I would walk.

If a potential student asked me these things, I would be partly taken aback, partly impressed. I certainly wouldn't be evasive though. All of the above suggests to me a person who wants to practice properly and formally - and with the right group.

Bad manners indeed!

 

Once again, You've been corrected on how YOU'RE imparting knowledge to others.

You've made a whole series of definitive statements recently which were entirely wrong.

 

@scottUK
Wow, when I started, all I asked was how much does it cost? I dropped into watch a class, liked what I saw, and started training. It never even occoured to me as a beginner to ask those questions.

@Dave
These definitive statements are from, again, what was mentioned to me in the beginning of my MA training. As El Medico said, perhaps my training is insular compared to others.
In anycase, thanks for your input.

As for being wrong, two rights don't make a wrong. And even if I am wrong in this case, it still does not change the fact that I will not tell you my rank, name, or serial number (well, okay, I told you my rank in the service

It also does not change the fact that I have never once considered asking anyone else their rank. That approach to the martial arts and in relations with the individuals I encounter outside the dojo or here on MAP does not cross my mind.

 

No,I didn't miss anything.To repeat what I wrote concerning this- "You didn't state specifically that's how you were taught,but I did take that into consideration.See my 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph."

Guess you missed that.So maybe you should have stated something like "In my limited experience in these matters,this is what I've been taught etc. etc.",as it does seem your experience regarding this-(I didn't mention training)- is very insular if those you associate with or have associated with feel the same way as you do.It may be the norm in your circles but it would lead me to conclude you haven't rubbed elbows with many other folks at all.

Oh yes,your "cultural" differences reference was about the US/UK,not yourself and unspecified "others". I'd suggest it would be more productive to plainly state what you mean initially rather having to explain it later,however I'm thinking you're waffling here.

Have you also never been asked your years in Aikido at these seminars you mention? I find it very difficult to believe this is never spoken of.Is it that everyone there knows you think it's rude so they don't bother, do Aikido folks in your experience all have this outlook,or perhaps the folks at the seminars you attend are markedly different than the bulk of MA practitioners in general who attend seminars elsewhere.Rather a quite unusual taboo.

Seems a bit of a hang-up with no rationale.

 

@El Medicl
No I have not been asked my years either. Not all who attend seminars know me outside of those I train with. I guess you could say people find other things to discuss, and I am not the center of focus at a seminar. Nor do I go around asking a person with whom I am about to practice...I see your wearing a black belt...what rank/degree are you? How many years have you been practicing?

Or oh, I see you have a brown belt on...is that an ikkyu or nikkyu brown belt?

And the same holds true for events after the seminar...I don't tell them I really enjoyed the practice, by the way what rank are you? Who is your instructor? What style do you practice (as often at these seminars there are visiting guests from differing styles), how many years have you been training?

And nobody has ever asked me. I'll let you know as soon as that changes.

(and for non aikido styles...I see you have fourteen patches, six vertical blue stripes, and a red horizontal stripe going through the middle of your black belt? What rank are you, and what does all that stuff mean?)

 

More gibberish.