Izumizu-ha

Ye, I know what you mean...I no longer have the yard I used to bury a foot of the jo in for target practice, that was when I was living with my sister for a short spell. I now practice inside my apartment, and between me and my two cats, I'm sure the neighbors below must hate me.

One of the other things I like to do for target practice is from sitting in seiza, I drop a coin on the floor in front of me, about where the last two inches of the bokken would fall, and I practice hitting the coin, it is a controlled suburi, so there isn't a whole lot of noise banging down to the neighbors below. The coin bounces and moves around when struck, so there is always some ammount of slight adjustment being made for the next strike.

You can also roll up a small hand towel and tape it with some duct tape in the center and practice landing the bokken in the middle of the tape.

Another standing drill, if you have a pool supply store nearby, you can buy those diving rings (or use any similar ring), tie a piece of string around it and hang it down from the center of a door way. Practice tsuki with either (jo/bokken) weapon this way is great, you can hang it at different levels, and gradually get rings that are smaller and smaller, so that eventually you are landing your tsuki in say an inch and half diameter hole. The smaller the better. Caribeaners/D rings also work great for this.

 

The problem with those practice methods you mention is that you are conditioning both visual cues and your muscular memory on to specific points in space which won't exist when you train/study with another person.

Whilst I do accept that aikiken is quite different from actual sword based study, the principle of how you hold and 'cut' shouldn't. If you're allowing the kissaki (tip of the bokuto) to tip below that of your right wrist, (so that you can make contact with whatever is on the floor) then you're compromising the integrity of your control of the weapon, do this enough and it will become a habit which will expose it's self especially when you're under pressure.

Whilst being accurate in your movements is important, the preciseness of the 'cut' in aikiken doesn't need to be so much unless you're studying iai or kenjutsu because the target area(s) for (aiki based waza) are much broader because the emphasis is different to dedicated sword based systems.

Dave

 

I would disagree. The ability to bring the weapon into play within an inch of the target, or closer, is beneficial. The ring hung at say throat level, or there abouts, and the ability to penitrate that ring with a weapon is great training.

You can lower that to stomach level as well. The visual cues and muscle memory can adapt fluidly to any situation. It is not exact every time in anycase...a person might be six foot four the throat is higher, a person might be five foot two, the throat is lower. The movements of the tsuki are different every time. Not that big of a deal for the body to adjust. One might be standing in front of the ring, or off to the side. It is also great training for understanding the weapons effective range.

As for the weapon itself, it is far more versatile than what you describe. There are 9 basic movements (cuts) with a bokken. It can stop anywhere along any point in motion the person weilding it so desires, along the path of the arc, or in a tsuki.

I tend to practice using about the first two inches of the bokken as that with which I make contact.

Sitting in seiza, when you hit the coin, your hands drop down between your legs, such that if you were to bring the handle back it would be hitting you directly in your main member. Give it a try...how many times can you hit a small coin every time the coin moves. It's just a little added drill to basick suburi.

Training tsuki with a small ring can be done in any combination of cuts, parrys, and/or blocks prior to the tsuki in which you find the target. It can also be done with cuts facing the other direction, so that when you pivot (zengo undo) to face the target behind you, you now find that target. This, in my experience, develops quite an amazing skill of accuracy, not just in training to hit a target at a desired level. As I stated, the body is able to make adjustments along the way. It also builds familiarity with the weapon.

In anycase, I promise you it will not go below the floor on which you train. I suppose if it will make you happy, you can get a shoe box or a stack of freshly folded laundry to place the coin ontop of and thereby raise it off the ground.

Edit: I also practice left handed a few times a year...

 

In terms of development of accuracy (and thereby control), tenouchi is far more important.

 

So you have never been in or seen gedan? Or done a kata in which you pass through, or cut into gedan? Or had to cut even lower?

View attachment 22023 View attachment 22024

Now picture this sitting in seiza...it will still be impossible for you to cut below the ground which supports you.
If you like, you can keep it toatally horizontal in this strike, hit the coin, and make a nice impression upon the tatami/mats/carpet...but I personally do not do so. I hit the coin about nine out of ten times with the bokuta. With the ring, I have about a 7 out of 10 accuracy...and when I miss the ring and it's now moving, it drops down to around 6 or 7 out of 10.

 

Look, let's not try to turn this into a competition of who's opinion is right or wrong.

I expressed an opinion based upon over 22 years study of aikido and over half of that again studying a koryu iai ryu-ha, it doesn't mean I'm right, just very well informed.

The image included in your recent post illustrates a kamae specific to either the begining or end of a particular movement (whatever that may be), not kirioroshi or more specific to aikido - uchikomi and your repeated striking exercise. Additionally if you look specifically at the kenshi's hands, you'll note that despite the kissaki being well below the right wrist, his left hand is still in direct alignment and not as I indicated would be poor form, to allow the left hand to rise above the right. (which also results, in incorrect arm/shoulder alignment and grip on the tsuka)

kamae wasn't the emphasis of what I was attempting to convey to you in my earlier post and it doesn't match the exercise you described of striking a coin on the floor when sat in seiza.

Let's agree to disagree, after all you're free to do exactly whatever you want. I just don't see the general worth of that particular exercise. Either as a student or an instructor.

 

On that note I'll mention one more exercise that can be used for checking accuracy within the practice of tameshigiri. Take a sharpie marker, draw a line that matches the cut you will be making, and see how close you come to striking that line (not crossways, but along or paralell to).

And a small bit from Mushashi:

"Generally speaking, fixation and binding are to be avoided, in both the sword and the hand. Fixation is the way to death, fluidity is the way to life. This is something that should be well understood."

In anycase, thanks for you observations and adding to the discussion.

 

Musashi probably didn't mean that you should do any old thing just because it seems to be flexible.

That particular quote is from The Water Scroll and it relates to his specific school of Kenjutsu.

Taking it out of context like you have loses it's meaning, imo.

Also I don't see the point in the marker drill. Correct hasuji is correct hasuji, and that's one of the main reasons for doing tameshigiri, the marker line is pointless and to be honest detracts from the exercise, imo.

Target acquisition is built via paired practice, or possibly on something like an iaidai if you're solo, generally solo practice is for other attributes.

 

Context? I wasn't using the quote to refer to doing any ole thing I want (as though I was trying to justify what I do using his words? Give me a break, Dean. Not even you would really think that would you?)

I was using Musashis words to refer to one should not be so fixated on grip, fixation is stagnant, fluidity is ever changing.

 

Do you realise that Musashi's school uses a very specific grip?

 

As for flexibility, it comes without being fixated, as in fixated on the grip.

There is no point in it, until you can actually hit the line...it is a life taking sword, and a life giving sword...sometimes the line is the deciding factor.

I don't see how being accurate with the sword, and testing your accuracy would detract in anyway from the exercise in which one might be using pure wild and uncontrolled cuts, without even so much as an ounce of control where exactly the sword may land.

 

Why the heck would you be practicing wild and uncontrolled cuts??

 

You mean this one?
View attachment 22025

Why would you be praccticing with a weapon in which you had no control over whether or not you can slice along the width of a sharpie line

 

Very good but did you realise that the school uses a specific grip?

Actually if we want to get technical that looks more like gyaku nito

This was sort of my whole point.

You took the quote and used it to make a point however the quote itself is from a section in which he talks specifically about his school and so you loose something when trying to make it fit elsewhere.

Can anyone take something away from reading the Gorin no sho? Yes sure they can everyone should read it, imo. However it directly relates to his school and I think that has to be kept in mind else you risk misunderstanding it.

Context is everything in Japanese.

 

What makes you for the slightest moment think that when you are doing tameshigiri or in fact any other sword based practice that you are uncontrolled?

Power generation, hasuji, tenouchi, accuracy etc are all developed via good kenjutsu and iai training.

A school will have drills, exercises etc for all of this and it will be done in a systematic and integrated manner.

I suppose the big question is what is Aikiken for? What was it developed for?
and are you trying to make your personal practice into something that isn't Aikiken?

I don't know I have sod all knowledge about swordwork in Aikido but what little understanding I do have has me believing that it's not kenjutsu per se and it wasn't intended to be used as such?

 

Sorry I don't wish to come across as argumentative.

Just trying to get my head around some of your posts.

 

Okay, fine...then draw the line, and see if you can sever that line as I have described using what you have been trained great, if not, I would say the accuracy portion needs work.

If you can come close to that line, say within a half inch to eitherside, I would suppose that is okay and acceptable for the modern world.

Can you do it? You don't have to make it a lifelong practice or anything, or even change your grip, but just try it one time...can you do it?

I think we know the answer, and probably with the coin and small ring as well...to do these accurately and with speed are quite difficult, probably a little more effort than most are willing to put into it without even so much as trying it just one time.

Instead of actually trying it to do it, you and Dave Humm just dismiss it as "I don't see what the point is."

Of course you don't see what the point is. That makes perfect sense.

 

I think you lack understanding of how tameshigiri is performed in some schools and some of the psychological aspects of the training.

It's not merely a straw target.

It's not a matter of not being bothered to try it's that for those of us who study swordsmanship our schools have various drills to develop these attributes, we can't see the point because we have things which cover it and these drills "fit" with the rest of the teachings of the school.

Please drop the "oh you can't be bothered" nonsense. Dave Humm has spent a considerable amount of time studying the sword arts and I study two separate systems of swordsmanship. Just because we can't see value in what you suggest does not for one moment mean that we lack effort or dedication in our training.

I could easily say to you that if you want to develop your sword skills then why aren't you being bothered to seek out dedicated kenjutsu or iai training?

You could be for all I know but not from the sounds of it.

Now how about dropping the attitude and debating this through? I've already said I was sorry for coming off as argumentative and that it wasn't my intention.

 

Again.

What is the purpose of Aikiken?

 

good luck with that