ITF/Ch'ang Hon - Maybe the rules about contact need to be clarified?

If this is a fixed stance, then its one of the weirdest looking stances I can think of to spar from. It looks like a sitting stance combined with an L-stance. Most guys that I see sparring in ITF have a shorter stance than the guy in the photo is demonstrating. This guys stance (looking at it now as a Boxer) is too long, and too heavy. It would be a very awkward stance to kick from yet alone punch or move around.

 

Of course Karate doesn't have sine-wave. The concepts of Karate punching are to move forward and keep the centre of gravity at the same height almost all the time. Body/hip rotation was taken straight from Shotokan. You jerk the hips violently at the last second, just like most forms of Karate.

We bring the non-punching hand to the hip instead of the ribs. Other than that, the principles are the same.

Fair enough.

Which is what I said. Your shoulders are in line when you punch i.e. full-facing.

Saju Jirugi dictates your torso is rotated slightly during an outer forearm block, and are full facing during an obverse punch.

[embed]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jU-6897y9U[/embed]

Also reference ITF Encyclopedia:

Volume 3, Page 31 (Walking Stance Obverse Punch)

Volume 3, Page 185 - "B. Defence Techniques":

Volume 3, Page 189 - Low Block.

Go take a look at Korean ITF and see how deep their stances get, yet they move about like cats on a hot tin roof. Even weight distribution, half-facing, about a similar width of feet, but sure, they're not sitting down If any stance is closest to the stance the best ITF competitors use, it's Fixed Stance.

 

That's not the case. Unprotected weapons (elbows, knees and shins) are scored higher than punches. IIRC effective clinching is regarded higher than punching too. Unbalancing an opponent is very well regarded. One problem Thai boxing has is that people in the west score Thai incorrectly (according to the Thai's) and score punching too highly (because of our western boxing heritage).
That's not how the Thai's do it.

 

They may not refer to it as sine wave but MANY martial arts have sinking the weight as a principal of body weight transfer and stability. Jack Dempsey's falling step is an example too.
Of course that doesn't then validate the exaggerated nonsense that is ITF sine wave but there is a kernal of truth in the notion of "dropping your weight" that the sine wave is seeking to highlight.
In Karate bunkai dropping into a walking stance is generally a shorthand for "drop your weight down and forward". That's one "arc" of a sine wave.

 

A fix stance is usually gone into after executing a technique, such as a side punch. You are right its very much like a combination of sitting and L stance. However, many MA's have what is technically a low stance and is used to deliver techniques to a lower target on the body.

From you comments it quite clear that you study more reality based arts than traditional and each to their own. I agree you would never see a fixed stance performed on the street but you would also not see it in sparring as its more a traditional stance that a functional stance. (ignore the hands as they are just in ready position so as not to detract from the stance definition).

 

I guarantee that you can find pictures of boxers in very similar stances.
The difference between the boxer and a TKDoin is that a boxer will look at it as a snap-shot in time rather than something to hang around in or execute techniques from.
Stances are very misunderstood in martial arts. Especially in an art like TKD that is an echo of a whisper of a rumour of an earlier martial tradition.

 

Oh no.

DON'T

Be HATING

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.the difference is whether you train intelligently or not.

 

Comments like this make me want to cry

My art is 120 years older than yours and I fully agree with Hapuka. "It's traditional" is not an acceptable rationale for a technique.

 

As I see it fixed stance is often adopted from another (higher/shorter) stance as a way of dropping weight and gaining some stability.
That sort of thing happens all the time surely?
In the street and in the sparring. I do it all the time.
The stance I might (momentarily) deliver a body shot from is lower than my regular fighting stance. If someone starts trying to throw from a clinch I'll drop into a lower stance.

 

Heres an article I wrote a few years back about ITF style sparring: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Light_Continuous.html

For the record, I like the 'light continuous style' of sparring - I don't feel its a reflection of SD, but simply the fun/game/sport side of ITF (style) TKD. It looks good (when done properly) and the average Joe comes out of it (usually) unhurt and able to go to work the next day.

To me, the skill in 'light continuous style' sparring is being able to throw a technique full speed and pull it!

I noticed the heavy TKD sparring seen nowadays means loads of techniques arnt attempted and I'm talking virtually every kick except Turning Kick.. no backfists or reverse knifehands... all that is considered the 'bread and butter' of TKD is no longer seen! I find that sad!

From a spectator POV.. its kinda boring too! I recently watched a World level event and it was boring.. the WTF Olympics was much more interesting IMO!

Just my tuppence worth!

Stuart

Ps. PASmith... I think you`ll find my view on 'stances' (in my latest book.. delete if I can't say that) interesting - it echos what you say, but moreso, defines what they are really for (IMO of course)!

 

Agreed, stances are very misunderstood. They're definitely only just a reflection of your body at a moment in time, not a fixed fighting platform.

People in full contact sparring typically don't use many other kicks because:

A. They've only trained for speed, not power
B. They aren't confident enough in their technique, or
C. They don't have someone to teach them properly.

Out of all the kicks someone can deliver, turning kicks are the easiest to train for full contact.

 

Well I've put it on my Chrimbly list. If I'm a good boy I might get it from Santa.

 

Honestly, Stuart, I don't ever recall the last time anyone threw a backfist or reverse knifehand at me in ITF sparring, even in light continous. There's no functional reason why you can't do so, even with the design of our hand protectors, but it's not something that I've ever seen trained or performed even at the highest levels.

 

I think the design of hand protectors (aka boxing gloves) has a bit to do with it, but so does the rules and the 'win at all costs' attitude of todays sparring!

Heres a video back in 2000... scroll ahead to the fight and you`ll see many technqiues, not used in todays sparring.. including the reverse knifehand!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H-Q-_L3Egg"]Anslow_2000-03 - YouTube[/ame]

I have others going further back than that, that show the change in sparring from then... to now!

Stuart

 

That doesn't sound like the same to me. And its not, based on my experience in Goju Ryu Karate. Hips are level, feet move straight ahead (for the most part depending on the stance) and the timing in striking techniques are different.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLX3tZN1JQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLX3tZN1JQ[/ame]

Punching is different to blocking. Most ITF practitioners like I said before prefer to spar side on, punches in ITF are generally taught with the practitioner standing square on to the target, as we see in step sparring and patterns.

The stances here in this video are much shorter than the picture that I posted (which is from the ITF encyclopedia)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbk7ccyODCc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbk7ccyODCc[/ame]

 

I really must ask you to please read what is being said before posting. You're starting to repeat what I'm saying.

Yes, that's what I said previously. Some Karate styles move straight forward without raising or lowering their centre of gravity.

For clarity's sake, I will amend my use of Karate to refer to Shotokan, being ITF's parent art. In Shotokan, movement is similar to Goju Ryu, where the legs move first, move straight and a punch is executed after the stance is taken.

Yes. Punches in ITF are taught full-facing. Why? Firstly, that's taken from Shotokan, but second, it's because that's where your shoulders are when the attack makes contact. Mostly, this refers to reverse punches/crosses, not jabs/obverse punches. Your shoulders will come full facing as you rotate your hips and shoulders into the punch. When you throw a punch with your rear hand, are your shoulders still side-on? No.

It seems you haven't actually read the Encyclopedia in full, or at least Volume 3. The Encyclopedia is littered with disclaimers advising that the pictures can appear distorted. Immediately following that picture, a Fixed Stance is described as being 1 and a half shoulder-widths long, between the insides of the feet. In reality, this is actually a lot shorter than what appears in the pictures.

Look at what stance the fighters engage into the moment that match begins. Their feet are not entirely side on, their shoulders are not entirely side on, their legs are wider than an L-Stance and their distirbution is equal. Aside from sinking low at the knees, this is very similar to a Fixed Stance.

They transition between shorter and longer stances throughout the match. Their typical sparring stance though, is relatively long, like the one at the start. At about 0:41-0:43, we see it again; the player on the right goes back into his wide sparring stance.

 

Yes I have read the ITF encyclopedia, and yes I do know the basic syllables of ITF Taekwon-do. And yes, I have read your posts. And my point is (my personal opinion, based on what I have seen and experienced) that ITF Taekwon-do does not teach a practioner how to punch effectively in sparring through its current teaching of the fundamentals. For punching to be effectively applied in ITF, it usually needs to be supplemented with another striking art.

Also, why are practitioners being taught how to punch square on when they're usually sparring side on?

 

Well, yes and no. There is a great emphasis placed on Fundamental Exercises in ITF Taekwon-Do, and that includes punching from Walking Stances and Sitting Stances where you're full facing. But it also includes punching from L-Stances, Fixed Stances, Rear Foot Stances, Vertical Stances, etc. which are all half facing (and, really, punching from a Sitting Stance can be either full facing or side facing).

But when it comes to practicing free sparring most punches are going to be executed from half facing (and maybe side facing) or executed in combination with the person moving from half facing to full facing and back to half facing again. This is similar to what happens when you punch in an L-Stance and shift into a Walking Stance for a second punch and then back into an L-Stance to take a guarding position in Fundamental Exercises.

Ironically, the screen capture on that video clip has both people in very close approximations of Fixed Stances

They both do switch around quite a bit moving to and from rough equivalents of L-Stances, Fixed-Stances, Vertical Stances, etc. While particular fighters might prefer to spend a lot of time in a particular stance it is important to remember to use the shifting from one stance to another to increase power in one's techniques, close the distance between combatants, and even retreat quickly for defense.

Pax,

Chris

 

Punching has its differences to blocking, one of them having the purpose of striking the other having the purpose of defending. The main key difference being range. When you generally stand square on, your range when it comes to punching will be shorter than if you were standing side on. In terms of defense, standing square on will make you a larger target (however in arts such as Muay Thai, you need to stand square on mainly because of kicks to legs and clinching). Generally in arts such as Muay Thai or Boxing, practitioners practice as they would spar.

For me it doesn't make sense to teach a practitioner 'A', when they do 'B' in sparring. Which is what I'm seeing in ITF with basics such as punching. If techniques are being taught generally from a square on position, then why aren't practitioners sparring square on?