Is Taijutsu/Ninjutsu still relevant in todays world.

Hopefully we can keep the sniping at each other to a minimum.

Modern day ninjutsu is based on practices that have been aound for hundreds of years, personally my thoughts are that what was practiced in the dojo was tested on the battlefield back then, and if it didn't work you died, also I imagine in a mass battle hand to hand combat was of minimal concern.

Today hand to hand is more of a priority (for most countries) and we have alot of people who have never tested their skills teaching others, should they be?

It is not realistic to be getting into scrapes with the local scum so should ninjutsu incorporate some more modern principles, along the lines of Geoff Thompson or The Blaur suit stuff, or the I Method?

 

I'm not sure about the suit stuff. I do think there needs to be at least more situational self defense. Hard mind you when then intention is not there to be hurt mortally but it does assist the mindset of getting into combat I'd believe.

Hard to go out and start fights to prove your worth though. Police frown on it.

 

I think the short answer will be "bits of it are, bits of it aren't."

I may land a staggering Ura Shuto on some aggressor's nose and put him to sleep, may sling a Sokuto Geri into someone and rotate them with it... But Muto Dori might not be my "go to" in a bus stop scuffle and no amount of Bikenjutsu will frighten the hoodies.

 

Although your question is legitimate, the discussions, debates and arguments that it tends to spawn are rather tiring and stale. And that's because they stem from a fundamental lack of solid education on what koryu is and more specifically what "ninjutsu" is.

Also keeping the arguments stale are personal notions surrounding the reality of violent encounters betwen human beings. Many detractors grouse that "people don't attack that way anymore" or "move that way anymore" or "use swords anymore". These detractors almost invariably have little to no experience actually studying the combat methodology of these ryu; instead they navigate the tepid morass of youtube and come to the inevitable conclusion that ninjutsu "sucks" because the only "real" combat is embodied by two thugs squaring their shoulders to each other and trading blows.

If you trained correctly under the supervision of qualified instructors, you would be able to see very easily that ninjutsu, as these arts we study tend to be categorized, are perfectly acceptable for self-protection in this day and age. That the methodology includes such things as swords and spears in no way diminishes the veracity of the teachings.


- Mark Spada

 

Thats a very good explaination of things.
Years ago I was working with a Kenjutsu practitoner on some movement, my argument then of course like many was not too many swords out there. So he asked me to attack, mind you using the very same movement he put me down pretty well.
At least that was memory of it, as I couldn't tell you specifically what the movement was.

I don't think it is a specifically Ninjutsu thing either. The art doesn't fit the arguement.

 

Parts of it a very relevant to today's world if trained/drilled correctly.
Parts of it are traditional/artistic but provide good food for thought within their movement/strategy to feed the practical parts.

 

Has the way people attack not significantly changed? More people do martial arts in this country than ever before, all bringing various ways of attacking, and MMA is one of the fastest ever growing sports(altough in a 1-1 situation still very dangerous)Should the way we train not reflect the attacks delivered from various Martial Arts?

Who in the Uk would be the people to train with for the required level of supervision? Should I go to a 3rd 4th or 5th dan? or a 10th? in other martial arts, BJJ for example you know you are getting quality by colour of belt.

 

What do you want from your training?

 

Personally, I want my training to benifit me as an individual, and ultimately proctect me when the proverbial hits the fan.

You?

 

That's a good question. And the answer may surprise you: absolutely NOT. Although I admit, as many must, that what we all know about how things were done "back in the day" is extremely limited, human beings would still have to rely a great deal on deceit, treachery, and surprise in order to gain an advantage over someone they intended to injure and/or kill. A lot of koryu training intends to condition the practitioner to the point of an almost preternatual degree of intuitive response. This is key in surviving a violent episode that you do not initiate yourself.

At the same time, it is my humble opinion that a good koryu instructor will be aware of the differences between what is thought of as self-protection today as opposed to hundreds of years ago in Japan, and will judiciously implement modern methodology that is completely congruent with the traditional teachings.

I am biased, I admit, but I would highly recommend Mr. Norman Smithers as far as a legitimate instrcutor is concerned.

I hear Manga is pretty awesome as well....although be warned: she is extremely proficient as disposing of the evidence. :hat:


- Mark Spada

 

Go do Judo and Boxing

So you have to work out what bits of what you are doing will help you with this.

You say:
“More people do martial arts in this country than ever before, all bringing various ways of attacking"

The physical delivery of the strike may differ but if you think about it the set-up beforehand probably hasn't changed much even going back a long way.

You still have to deal with the deception and distraction that most attackers will use, if you don’t' get that what comes after will be irrelevant.

This, imo, is where you have to look.

Is what you’re doing workable on the basic level, is the material functional?

Then what do you have to do to make it work in your environment.

For self-defence those are the big bits, imo.

Me? I've got a thing for shiny pointy things!

No Norm that doesn't mean your head

Seriously I train in what I do because I love Koryu and all that comes with it.

I like the mind set it teaches, the pressure I’m put under, the depth of sudy.

I have an interest in self-defence but have been in enough situations, believe it or those that know me , to understand how I react and how I function.

That doesn’t mean I don’t need more work but at the moment my aims are elsewhere.

However I still look at the material I study and discuss it with my teacher with regards to self-defence.

In solo practice I might practice atemi for an hour, working at the proper distance and from the proper kamae but latter I might alter it, use it from a fence along with dialogue etc

I strike from a certain position during keiko for a specific reason, that links in with the rest of the school and material, but luckily that doesn’t take much adaptation on my part to put it into use in a modern context” my hand position may change but the power generation, entry, and tactics remain the same.

The context just shifts things a little.

 

The thing is, we are not on a battlefield anymore.

I am not trying to be sarcastic. The idea that something could be used in a real life or death situation and passed muster is important.

The problem is, we have to deal with things like sucker punches and the legal system now. The mechanics of the art might be effective- if you do them right. (And I find most of the people that try to point to the arts long history as proof that it is effective are pretty much worthless as teachers.) But if you are facing someone screaming at you about taking his parking space, there is a lot more going on than in the days of battlefield combat where you knew who the enemy was, that he was attacking you and you were ok to kill him if you could.

People still move the same way, it is the social system that we have to worry about.

Keep that in mind.

Aside from that, Mark did a damn good job of answering your points IMO.

 

Granted for a surprise attack, but back in the day of the ninja was there any real psychological build up, other than staring at 500 opposing troops the other side of a field? The battle the got underway...no pushing an shoving.

Today unless your into football violence you are not likely to be in that situation, so the attacks will be different, less weapons, more on the ground esspecially with half the gym monkeys wanting to be "cage fighters".

 

From an old adage the KKK is for me..( not that one )

Kihon
Kata
Kumite

 

Do you do spar at your club? or enter competition?

 

Any real psychological build up? Are you kidding?

That's my point.

You take the fundamentals, the physical skills, the hyoho and apply it to the correct context as in my example about atemi.

I'm less worried about the ground than I am the sucker punch, the bloke in my blind spot and the hidden weapon.

How often do you think these old arts like the Bujinkan ryu-ha (historical validity aside for a mo ) have the feudal equivalent of the sucker punch?

You might find it’s more than you think and wasn’t a punch.

There’s stuff there in these types of arts you just need to be shown it and successfully make the link to now.

However if your only interest in self-defence then go do Judo and Boxing then train with one of Geoff Tompson’s guys.

 

Maybe I phrased it wrong, the difference would be you would have trained to go to war, like a soldier of today would (although not as well) and then you woould go to war...if your skills worked you came back...if not, you didn't. Tests were made against other schools and allegedly to the death, but the battlefield was the main one...

Very different to today's battles, are they to the death? granted it may happen but it's not usually the focus of the attack.

 

It's in a boxing/kick-boxing/MMA club so theres no shortage of people to spar with, if thats your thing.

 

Not really answering my question, Do you have sparring in your syllabus? or ground work? scenario training?

These are the areas for me, where many of the Bujinkan schools fall down.

 

I agree with you here. A lot of Bujinkan dojo do not include any sort of pressure testing in their training regimen. But there are plenty that do. The better ones, in my opinion, will take a good look at modern methods of grappling and submission fighting as well.

You just have to keep an eye out for them.


- Mark Spada