i've read a lot of posts that say if you're not doing taichi 'properly' (which usually means martially) that you're not getting anymore benefits from it than you would from walking. Is this really true or an exaggeration. I ask this because as newbies (or even to those who have been practicing for years and havent mastered it yet) theres a desire to know that you're getting more than what you would by mere walking out of it! After all, that's a lot of time/money/effort that would be wasted. Conversely, when i read about all these modern studies of the health benefits of the elderly and new ager types who practice the "watered down" taichi form, the benefits are always amazing and seem to be more benefits than just walking. (ie better balance and coordination skills are developed) I'd like to know you're opinions on this
The damage you can do if you do tai chi properly (not even mentioning the more new-age warnings re: improper chi flow): Strained knees from improper stepping (knees beyond toes) Bad posture and further ingraining adult posture problems (esp. spine alignment, leading to back problems & migranes) Improper stretching, tendon/ligament damage Negative effect on any listening skills/balance you had to begin with, esp. destroying your "rooting" ability (prob. in all senses of the term ) False sense of security, which leads to the practitioner being whupped by a 16yo with 2 months of muay thai training Put it this way, it'd have the same bad effects as if I said "ooooh, look, I'm doing karate" and tried to punch a brick. "Proper" tai chi is not tai chi used martially. "Proper" tai chi is the correct alignment, posture and movements. I like to think of tai chi as moving Pilates, as the emphasis, many exercises and strengthening is very similar. Tai chi could've been based on any series of movements (e.g. fishing, weaving, tennis). It just so happened that the cultural environment that tai chi arose out of was in a martial context. Therefore, the movements we practice have a martial "base". You can learn tai chi without the martial side, but IMHO, a knowledge of the martial side of tai chi is as useful as the knowledge of latin for an english professor. When you recognise the roots of the "words" (movements), you see how they're connected, what pov they came from, and gives you a better insight into their intended uses/applications/performance. Doesn't mean you have to speak latin, you just know where the language has come from.
I disagree with the above post... (bad NZRic bad ) Taiji is not martial because it was based on the environment... it is martial because it was developed as a martial art... However... (and I say this with great trepidation) you do not necessarily need to learn it as a martial art to get some great benefits... " "Proper" tai chi is the correct alignment, posture and movements." is pretty correct... But... "The damage you can do if you do tai chi properly (not even mentioning the more new-age warnings re: improper chi flow): Strained knees from improper stepping (knees beyond toes) Bad posture and further ingraining adult posture problems (esp. spine alignment, leading to back problems & migranes) Improper stretching, tendon/ligament damage Negative effect on any listening skills/balance you had to begin with, esp. destroying your "rooting" ability (prob. in all senses of the term ) False sense of security, which leads to the practitioner being whupped by a 16yo with 2 months of muay thai training" is only if you do it incorrectly and not with the proper alignment, posture etc...
Uh, yeah, that was my point Maybe I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking if you do tai chi improperly (incorrectly), whether you still get benefits from it. Was your question more along the lines of (that some people say ")if you're not doing tai chi in a martial way, it's not correct, therefore you're not doing yourself any more good than walking(")? Also, my point was that tai chi was developed as a chuan. However, the principles of tai chi can be used for any activity that uses refined movement. Yes, tai chi was developed as a martial art, but I think it's equally possible for someone to have developed a "tai chi" of fishing/tennis etc, which uses the same principles of coordination and body mechanics (e.g. internal power generation).
right. and i think im doing it with pretty good alignment and i know im not extending my knees past my toes (thats something i learned to be aware of 10+ years ago when i was doin external martial arts) Plus i own most of the taichi classics and i follow the 10 main principles as best i can. And i do think of doing it martially while im doing it if the founder of the yang style got good at taichi by secretly looking at chen guys doing it then i suppose that proves you dont *need* a taichi instructor to personally train you to get to a good enough level. but to master it i'm sure you do
I've worked on clinical research within hospitals comparing the physio rehab of cardiac (heart surgery) patients using 'traditional' physio techniques vs taichi. Glad to say that you're about as likely to recover from doing taichi as you are just waving your arms about! So what does this say? Well, it doesnt mean that taichi was bad - just that it was no better. On a broader issue - its interesting to note that those who merely studied internal arts for the health aspect only didnt really live that long in comparison to those who studied for the martial aspect. Weird huh?
Remember the rest of it. Yang Lu Chan went back repeatedly to the Chen village to train, because he found his 'tai chi' wasn't good enough (he got beat). He only (allegedly) used solo training as a start, then moved to private one-on-one training.
i meant good enough in the sense of getting all the good benefits aside from martial arts ability. i dont know if i'd ever get to a point where i'd fully trust my taichi trainin in a fight since i have over a decade of external martial arts training and i never get in fights (so the next fight i was in i'd use what previously works/what i'd naturally do) i know there are lots of alternative ways to combat stress/get healthy but i really like doing taichi solo form because of the way its all put together. i dont have to think about it, just do it. and a few times a day. can't really do that with many other things. i like that i can do it in my room or outside. without any equipment, all standing up. and moving slow/meditating and it 'feels' really good/relaxing and my legs feel really worked and my back feels stretched. i'd say i do taichi 99.95% for health/antistress/fun/philosophy reasons and the rest with thinking about how i might really defend myself with it against a person. simply because stress attacks me everyday, people dont (luckily). I actually learned from taichi how to let go. including how to let go of wanting to be some amazing fighter. how to let go of wanting security so bad that i obessed about self defense as if i'm some victim in the world. i find peace in it and i think thats much better than finding fighting skill in it!
Here's my 2 cents. people are too hung up on how martial taiji really is. Probably because it does not have a very martial appearance I suppose ans the fact that it's pretty slow, and a lot of old people do it. So what! People do taiji as exercise alone, they just do a form (normally one of the shorter ones). It works on strengthening their legs and increasing the flexibility of the hips. It also works to improve balance. Another benefit is in how taiji can help you to relax, to get rid of the tensions that build up in life. These can be both physical and mental. It is a spiritual path, in that it can teach you about taoism and maybe help you to change your outlook on life for the better. Now all of the above are fantastic reasons for doing taijiquan (an alternatice way of looking at quan is to think of it as a method. Not just a fighting method). You could find other exercises that will have the same results, but I don't think that there are that many that would have all three. The icing on the cake is the fact that it is also a martial art. No, infact its the cherry on top of the icing. The main thing is the benefits you can gain in the rest of your life from studying taiji. Most of these effects can be got from just doing form in a good class environment.
you're absolutely right i think. We do get hung up on things. I think JUST the mere fact of anyone even TRYING to do something good for themselves is GREAT! Especiallly as we become more stressed and inactive in modern societies. I'd rather see a new age hippy waving his arms around than a couch potato any day. after all thats just a snapshop of that person in that point of time. who knows where they'll eventually end up. if we disagree with what they're doing now thats our problem. and we only need remember that we were once (or still are) in a position where we're doing somethin that we no longer agree with but it took time to learn that. As an old taoist quote goes i think "in conversation dont talk about the faults of others. Meditate on your own faults". Perhaps none of us are truely 'misguided' we're just where we're at and however we got here is perfect and in flow and harmony with the universe. (ok that might have sounded a little hippy there but it labeling it something we associate with something we dont like would cause us to be closed to any ounces of possible truth in it right)
I am starting to think that trying to seperate tai chi (principles) and tai chi chuan (principles + martial art) is a bit like trying to seperating ying from yang. battles/fights are not only physical. As humans we face many 'battles'. Doesn't a fisherman face a battle everyday to catch his qouta of fish. It is not a surprise though that the physical manifestation of the 'chuan' is as it is. We are free at the end of the day to cast our gaze on any shade of grey that we wish. I personally beleive that tai chi is taoist in origin, as such it is the physical, mental and spiritual manifestation of tao. At its pinnacle is to practice with supreme hardness and softness as one to gain tai chi chuan to face any type of battle for survival. We are free, however to cast our gaze on whichever shade of grey that we choose to. If you want to get good/better at useing the physical chuan on others (in conjuction with your mind+spirit) it helps to find people to do it on A good guide/teacher helps too If you can find one with a 'lineage' even better.
labels are nice and helpfull... But to paraphrase the tao 'I want to meet someone who has forgotten the words' why? because they don't need them anymore, they know/understand the essence.
Even if they aren't doing it perfect (hey, who here amoungst us are?) doesn't mean it is of no use. As long as they are moving, it is all good. It's all exercise. My granny lived longer than many Tai Chi Masters, and she smoked 20 a day. It doesn't guarantee that you live a long time, but it does help you go better for longer.
Hi Guo_Xing_Yi, I just want to reply to your comment about the heart patients as I've been one in the past few years and I had my operation in the Northern General in Sheffield. After the operation I was told that I'd have to give up doing Mauy thia which was a very big blow for me as they seem to think that your life is over when you have this kind of surgery, well guess what I'm a rebel and I refuse to accept this. Since I've been doing tai chi, I've found that I have more energy during the day and my joints are getting more supple which is a good thing. With tai chi your not just doing the form your also circulating the blood suply around the body a lot better which in medical terms can only be for the good as it also help the blood supply from the heart as your getting relaxed, it also helps with your body getting itself repaired as well through using the joints and not letting them sieze up when your a lot older. If your getting relaxed doing the form then isn't it going to stop you having any chest pains (angina) which I've been used to in the past when I'm stressed out, isn't it better to just do the form a few times so you can get to the point where you can see it's not worth the energy on getting tense or wound up through every day things what might happen. I've got a lot of respect for tai chi and it's helped me a great deal to get back what I've had took away from me, OK it's not the same as kickboxing but what the hell it's still a form of training and I still get the chance to do some soft sparring when I'm doing pushing hands with the group I train with. I know your only doing your job and you have to be objective but coming from one the heart patients who still has to have a pacemaker one day, don't give up on us just yet please............... lisa xx
I've done lots of external Ma's before TC, but I've also done Aiki to blackbelt...........TC is a funny thing I've done it with folk who really didn't know the ma applications ( I thought that I'd get that later)..and now I do it with lots of ma application.....it's still the same though.loads of form practice...the real difference is how you move, you open and close your Qwa.you "ripple " when you do TC...this is what the chimeister types don't get...it's not just doing the form it's "how you do the form".there is no real difference between the form and the application.....but doing it that way, I believe that the health benefits are tremendous...even on a psychological level.because you know that you are doing it right............and then again you can kick *ss as well
quoting another post i read on a different website: "While we examine the health benefits of taichi and yoga we should not forget modern science. Regardless of the health promoting system, it must conform to the latest research in modern sports medicine. The ancients while they had great insight lacked modern understanding of physiology,antatomy,pathology, etc. The student seeking a martial art/ and or health promoting exercise should use common sense while the teacher should keep abreast of modern sports medicine and do no harm." Do you think this really works with tai chi? Since taichi is based on more of traditional CHINESE medicine as opposed to modern sports medicine?
Western/modern medicine is seriously overrated ime I have personal experience of its shortcomings. It produces its own publicity and promotes itself above all other methods. If I right loads of reports about myself saying how great I am and how crap everything else is, would you believe them? Of course not - but that is the existing situation with the western medical model. I'm not saying it's all bad - there are good points - but I see people in my Tai Chi classes every day who have been abandoned or failed by our medical system and over time I see many of them improve. One thing 'modern' medicine has given us tho' - the term 'Iatrogenic death' i.e. death caused by medical treatment. Check out the numbers of those deaths each year before you buy the hype on allopathic medicine Sports medicine? External Martial Arts only imo ( :woo: :woo: :woo: ducking for cover now..... :woo: :woo: :woo: ) N :Angel:
