Yeah I agree that's a factor You can increase the accuracy a lot by using them as you release grips or change your frame - so your hand is already pretty much in place as part of the gross motor movements They cause a lot of disruption and pain as you transition which makes life a lot easier Of course they need drilling etc to come to life in the moment, but probably folk can try it a bit before writing them off entirely or devoting time to incorporating them
Yes, I said front on kick to the groin/small intestines. This would be about that area just below the waist. A slightly upward kick (less than 30 degrees upward, mostly straight in). It could be about the area of the urinary bladder, but because of the slightly upward angle, I tend to say below the waist. It isn't a strike to the testicles, but because of the nerve endings, it feels like you got kicked there. I explained the area here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074935802&postcount=24 And Fish of Doom identified the actual area here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074935809&postcount=25 The following video is the target location for the kick, although we train to kick the location with the ball of the foot rather than the top of the foot. So look at the location of the kick, not the technique in the video. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz7Y2Gder30"]OUCH! Keeper gets kicked in the groin - YouTube[/ame] The thing is, going back to the life preserver idea, this kick also can control the hips (push them back) to break posture, so it has a consistent aspect to it if the technique is trained correctly for disrupting posture.
In a more general thought about effectiveness, techniques could be lumped into two buckets. 1. Those techniques that you can get to work consistently even when the resisting opponent knows it is coming. 2. Those techniques that you can only get to work consistently if the resisting opponent doesn't know it is coming. This doesn't play directly to any particular martial art style. For example, Superfoot Bill Wallace could kick opponents in the head consistently, even though they expected he was going to kick them in the head, they just couldn't prevent it. Thumb strikes are for the most part techniques that only work if they don't know it is coming. However, there are a few, most likely, that can use them effectively against resisting opponents even if the opponent knows they are coming. If we just look at what is practical. Is the technique practical for each person using it?
Hi Where does deception fit into this model? Or techniques that are designed to be difficult to see/feel coming These are a focus of the buj (& other styles) at higher levels I think I'm not sure I agree with you about thumb strikes, in my experience they are extremely difficult to prevent because they can have a big effect with minimal power. As a result they are difficult to feel coming & they can pop out during a lot of grappling positions/transitions. Pretty much whenever you can grip the collar you can put in a thumb strike for example (with training)
Deception fits into the model. This is why I picked Superfoot Bill Wallace in my example. He would feint lower and then kick the opponent in the head. Deception was a big part of why he could pull off the kick to the head even when the opponent knew it was coming. Opponent's didn't have time to counter once they reacted to the low line feint. I can see how my categorization could be confusing. When I say, "they know it was coming", I meant they are aware of the technique and have trained to counter it. However, even with preparation, they still end up in a position where they have no defense against it. So the conversation is more like "they never saw it coming" even though they had prepared against it. I shouldn't have used the word "prevent". What I meant is that the technique is countered. I would use pinching as an example. You can pinch someone by surprise and get them to overreact to the pinch. However, if they expect the pinch and have trained to counter it, it is much less likely they will over react and even they might not react to the pinch at all. On the other hand, if you train to pinch a small area and condition the technique, you can still get a reaction even if someone has prepared against pinching because you are applying so much more pressure than someone without good pinching technique. The same with striking with the thumb. If you condition and have good thumb strike technique, you can affect opponents who have trained to counter the strike. However, if you have weak or just okay thumb striking, someone who has prepared against the strike might just be able to neutralize the effects and counter.
Ninjutsu uses a lot of techniques that might not look effective, often because those looking do no know what they are looking at. Take jodan uke for example. It is an incredibly effective technique, but if you think it is possible to perform a basic jodan uke against a fast strike, you will think it doesn't work. However, if you understand that jodan uke isn't one movement, but several different blocks/interceptions/strikes practiced as one movement, then you can understand how and why it would be effective. Techniques in kata are also not meant to necessarily be utilised in the exact choreography or positioning of the kata. This is obvious in the bojutsu kata, but often overlooked in taijutsu. Another example is in application. Thumb strikes to pressure points can be very effective, but you have to condition your thumb, timing and delivery, and application to use them for real. The temple, sternum, and other pressure points aren't easily conditioned(though you can practice getting hit there to diminish the effects somewhat), so surprise isn't necessarily a factor but surprise is hardwired into the kata and training. The angle of attack and footwork are meant to bring strikes in invisibly. Pain however isn't the most important factor and we learn not to rely on it. Striking is done in a way to be accumulative(though you should be able to strike harder as you progress), affect balance, and setup throws, grappling, or locks. These aspects of the art have to be practiced from learning speed up to as realistic as possible in order to be useful, but that is part of why they are so effective if learned properly.
I think generally we're in agreement The only point I'd make is that these kind of attacks are a bit different from pinching. Pinching is essentially applying pain alone - which has it's place, but is limited The kind of attacks I'm referring to have a structural element to them
I pretty much thought we were in agreement. However, for a moment let's not focus on the attacks or techniques, but more on what it takes for them to work consistently. In one of the threads I posted about training robots. The robot stage is the first stage in developing an effective killer in a shorter amount of time. Start with desensitizing to violence, dehumanizing the enemy, and a limited set of instructions that are followed with complete determination. In response to violence, martial arts training takes parts of training robots to do the dirty work, but hopefully not to the point of brainwashing or the results of dehumanizing anyone. For example, I trained with folks that could palm strike me in the face very effectively. I could play a more feeder role with a 1, 2 punch (jab + cross) combination and before I could get the cross off I would get hit in the face. Pretty amazing that I couldn't counter a palm strike to the face when I fed in a jab and cross, even though they kept doing to me so I knew it was going to happen again and again. They were like machines in efficiency to my attack. Then I threw in a Thai round kick, sometimes instead of a jab + cross or in combination with. Guess what? It completely messed up the less experienced ones. Just a simple addition to a different attack made them unable to come in effectively with their palm strike counter to my face. I would often nail them good with the kick, and once the kick became a big concern, my punches started to connect. Now remember I'm being a "feeder" meaning I'm attacking in a fairly scripted manner. The more experienced folks were much less fazed by the addition of a round kick into the mix. Now what was it that made the more experienced folks still able to use the palm strike to the face more effectively? I have a very good idea why because I do the same things to a point. Take this type of discussion and apply it to the techniques you train.
Getting back to the effectiveness of ninjutsu, I see some interesting ideas in the testing but unfortunately, a lot to be desired(especially for sandan testing): [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFc18q1OnQU"]Part 2 - Weapons - Tactical Ninjutsu Smart Fighting Dan 3 Sandan - YouTube[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPv4xbeNemY"]Part 3 - Randori (Free Fight) - Tactical Ninjutsu Smart Fighting Dan 3 Sandan - YouTube[/ame] All in all, I like the test. The laziness of technique(leaving the arm out, no spirit behind the attacks, no respecting the attacks by the testee, questionable technique, etc) kind of undermine the idea behind the breadth of it, and the testee was winded very quickly(partly could be a lack of stamina, but also due to the amount of effort he is putting into the techniques, by sandan you'd hope he would have his moves a bit more controlled and less big). The uke go limp and let the testee ninjer them a lot, so it's hard to rate these videos as an example of effectiveness, but they are headed in a good direction with some tweaks implemented. Lack of intensity would still be one of the biggest factors when testing, and this series leaves a lot to be desired. Compare that to the first bit of randori in this video: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz2pnt5mCjI"]NINJUTSU BUKIJUTSU RANDORI - YouTube[/ame] Feasibility of technique aside, I know which I'd rate as an exercise.
People who train less effective systems are often very good at theory and have a pretty decent ability to convince less knowledgeable folks that what they do actually works. Through theory, anything can work. It's not that hard to construct a narrative where a certain technique would hypothetically work. My advice to anyone looking to learn how to fight is not to rely on anyone's fairy tales. If your instructor claims he can dodge punches and kicks and apply wrist locks and what not, ask him respectfully to do that to you. Attack him with everything you have, resist everything he tries on you, and then you will know the truth. See how many of the BJK waza he can actually apply against a fully resistent opponent.
And when you find out that he can? If you find your teacher cannot use the principles and aspects of the kata on anyone even when resisting, you should be asking questions. When you find that your teacher can but you can't, you should be asking questions.
Seoi-nage works fine in Judo randori, why wouldn't it work in Bujinkan randori? Punches and kicks work fine in Kyokushin randori, same techniques in the Takamatsuden arts, for the most part. If it doesn't work, it's a training issue, not the technique.
I'm sorry RoninX I probably was being a bit trite in my response here This is my experience of how I got into the buj In my teens I studied aikido, sparred with my brother (brown belt TKD) & played ruby which got me through my schoolboy teenage scraps with flying colours. When I went to uni there were loads of martial arts clubs so I thought I'd try them all out to decide which one was for me I stumbled across 3 guys training in what they called traditional japanese martial arts (they were bujinkan, but distancing themselves from the N-word) I had never experienced pain like it - they completely controlled me, I felt like an absolute novice and was hooked Things in the buj were fairly nascent at the time so we spent time testing techniques to figure them out (information was fairly scarce), conditioning our hands/strikes and sparring with guys from other styles I trained with all the well known buj people in the UK & Europe (the benefits of being a student and having a lot of time on my hands). The mixed quality of these people was disappointing and I felt lucky to have stumbled upon a group of people training in a practical way and working hard to connect with Japan for the purposes of development rather than fame I visited Japan quite early on in my training and approached it with the same attitude - namely "How does this stuff work?" Naturally I resisted the techniques when they were being applied on me and tried to knock the teacher's head off with my attacks When I punched Noguchi-sensei as fast and hard as I could my arm stopped working for 20 mins after his block When I resisted Ishizuka-sensei's throw he tore me to the floor face first by my skin and I only just managed to breakfall. He also showed us the dents on the post... When practicing bear hug escapes I lifted Seno-sensei off the ground (because that's what you'd do) only to find one of my legs knocked out from under me and unable to walk for the rest of the class I tried to resist Manaka-sensei's unbalancing movement, but couldn't despite knowing exactly what he was going to do each time When I tried to unbalance (little) Oguri-sensei it was like trying to move a cast iron statue until he moved and folded me up like a pretzel Nagato-sensei treated me like the child I was and only had to hit me lightly to control me. Others got far more brutal treatment from him in those days... And soke? Well he just played with me and I couldn't touch him I've had the opportunity to spar with most of the Japanese shihan in one form or another, most notably Seno-sensei, and whilst I've landed a punch here and there I've never had a moment with any of the top shihan when I've been unconvinced For the record I've been left unimpressed by many senior people in the bujinkan, Japanese and western, so I don't think that I have rose tinted glasses on I've tested the core techniques against experienced folk from other styles and whilst it's convinced me of the need to do more specific sparring in my buj classes (& get more experience in newaza) it's also proved to me the worth of the techniques and approach
Totally agree with Dunc whom i have trained with on many occasion,there are some seriously bad instructors in the Bujinkan, some based in the UK, on the other hand, there are some seriously good ones too, again, some based in the UK, and like Dunc, i have met and trained with both, not just here but foreign senior grades that travel to Japan, and again like Dunc, i was able to discern between good and bad, the trouble is the bad instructors think they're good, and even when you tell them the opposite they don't listen, it used to frustrate the hell out of me watching these people, now i ignore them, it's their backsides that will be handed to them on a plate, not mine.
I won't find out that he can, because he can't. Period. It's just as simple as that. I don't care who you are or what rank you have in the BJK. You're not gonna grab my fist while i'm trying to punch you and apply me an omote gyaku in the process. That just won't happen. Not saying you couldn't beat me. But if you do, it won't be with anything you train in BJK. It just won't happen and i've challenged many people over the years in my area to prove me wrong. Most don't accept it. Those who did accept any form of sparring didn't look that much better than your average person in a fight. Those who did a little bit better, did it by using techniques and methods that you don't really train in the Bujinkan. It's just that simple. Now, you will certainly find a lot of people claiming they already did it. They either beat someone using BJK techniques or they were beat by someone using them. Anecdotal evidence is very easy to find. But the reality is that we have absolutely no proof that the BJk system works. No footage whatsoever of a BJK guy applying what he trains on a fully resistent opponent. Like i said before, one of the very few and most recent footage we have on a BJK member trying to fight someone shows him getting tossed like a kid by a brown belt in BJJ. A brown belt in BJJ tossing a 15th dan who trains in japan with Soke around like a ragdoll. What kind of credibility can a system expect to have when one of its highest ranked members can't even put up a fight against an average brown belt from another style?
This stands out. Exactly which waza was it that you were practicing that involved omote gyaku on an outstretched tsuki? That sounds more like an unfortunate "move like Soke" technique. Maybe I'm mistaken.
Just curious what sort of sparring you are talking about here. Do you mean full range sparring, weapons work, staanding randori, ne-waza? contact level? etc not anticipating a particular answer, nor is the question loaded: just genuinely curious.
