Is Ninjutsu Really Effective?2

yes, or getting dragged down, or thrown unless you off balance them first.

And training mutual grips when only one partner is wearing gi, isnt 'mutual grips'.

 

In case anyone is wondering, didn't roll with Dunc but felt his newaza through demos. Guy is legit.

 

Hmmm,

https://vimeo.com/168901744 doesn't make much sense to me with the emphasis on the pulling down on the right sleeve. Wouldn't the key be your right hand pressure to "lift and push away" uki while using your control of the right sleeve to immobilize uki's right arm and leg in place?

This allows you to use your right leg as the supporting leg for the left kick to the groin. Then you can use uki otoshi or sumi otoshi for the throw.

If you are truly pulling down on uki's right sleeve while kicking, doesn't uki just have to drop down and cause you to fall down?

In regards to the danger of the single leg take down, the risk is really prominent if uki can catch your kicking leg while turning their body. Otherwise, your right hand should keep them upright to prevent the single leg. Also, when you kick, always prepare the option to drive their head down into a rising knee to the face. If they come in without having first caught your leg, that is a good time to knee them in the face. You also have variants of Tomoe Nage to add in the mix.

 

So in one breath you're saying that the bits which cannot be trained safely are so integral to the system that they cannot be removed but you're also saying that the core elements which actually make the techniques and tactics effective can be trained safely under resistance without the other bits. Which is it?

Yes, if you remove them people will start moving differently and the style will evolve to what works better against resistant opponents.

Slightly if at all. And as I said before, if you can deal with someone's reaction in sparring, from say getting hit in the gut, then dealing with a reaction from hitting a more sensitive area like the groin. There are only so many ways someone can react and if you train with resistance you'll cover all of them at some point.

Right, I've done the same. That doesn't make it the better training method. You and I both know things trained under resistance will be pulled off better under resistance. And if the techniques WERE okay to perform in sparring then there's no reason not to have trained them under resistance.

Okay but that wouldn't be self defence as you have to work within legal constraints which means 99.99999% of the time you won't be smashing groins, poking eyes, hitting throats, etc, and would have a whole whack of other stuff to deal with outside of the physical. It wouldn't be sport as we've already discussed. So I'm unclear on exactly which context you're training for and how you think that an inferior method of training coupled with excessive force techniques preps you for that.

 

As i said in the other thread, having seen the videos he's posted I actually see quite a lot of promise in some of the stuff he's posted. So please don't take my line of questioning to be a knock on that.

 

Thanks for the details (although I had to reverse your use of left to mean right arm for uke). I still feel that the key is unbalancing uke backwards. I feel the grab on uke's right sleeve is to hold it in place like a pivot point rather than try to get uke to weight their right foot. I'm just thinking the sleeve grab more along of the horizontal plane.

As for the kick. We have that kick in one of our forms. We call it the "ball ripper" since for some reason we got the idea that without shoes on, you use that kick to grab on to certain parts of the male body with the toes and rip. :lowblow:

 

Since when has giving someone a good kick in the plums got you in more legal trouble than a cross to the jaw?

I've said before that I'm not a huge fan of groin kicks outside of pre-emptive strikes, distraction, and if a better target isn't available (hard to envisage that, but never say never). However, I think it's much safer than punching people in the head.

 

Scalability of force, which again makes the bits which can be trained with resistance more important than faux smashing people in the groin in kata

 

How do you scale back a punch to the jaw?

If you want to learn how to deliver groin strikes, and defend against them, add them to your sparring. Just like punches to the head.

 

Not to a significant enough degree to warrant what you're talking about. Again, solid resistance trained grappling skills + nasty bits > kata trained nasty bits

There is objectively more transfer over to ruleless situations from things like boxing, judo, wrestling, etc. than from arts which pull the "too deadly to spar/train with resistance" line so no. People will start doing things which work better against resistant opponents period and you do realize you can craft the context/rules to produce desired outcomes right? The HEMA folks do it and it works fine. I do it in blast sparring and it works fine. John does it in DART and it works fine. I know, I know the HEMA folks will never get the same reaction as if they were ACTUALLY cutting each other up but they'll be a million times better than people doing kata with live blades.

Easily tacked on when you have the superior skills produced by resistant training

Not to a significant degree & not to a significant degree.

See my answer to a). I would put a Thai boxer's ability to protect themself against a nut shot up against someone who trains in a non-resistant fashion with the nasty bits in there.

But perfectly valid to say that non-pressured training is garbage when compared to the alternative and that the bits which aren't safe are relatively easy to add on to solid skills built through resistant training or even through resistant training themselves where possible.

Okay, so if your goal is a kind of living archaeological research then I understand your goal not being maximal effectiveness and optimal training.

I guess competent would be a relative term. Competent within the limitations you've imposed on yourself given the aforementioned goal.

 

What I mean is that all the other fundamental stuff which comes before that for self defence physical skills, solid basic striking and grappling skills, and which allows you to run the gamut in terms of severity of force, has to exist before that anyway even if you wanted to effectively use nasty bits. And the majority of self defence situations requiring physical force do not require the purposeful use of force which could likely cause permanent, crippling damage. Of course if you have things like stand your ground laws etc I guess that wouldn't really apply where you live.

Or build the basic skills at defence and distancing through resistant training which will then allow you to cover the range of angles from which people could hit you in the groin anyway.

 

If you have used a move to knock/take your opponent down 1000 times, the chance that you will be able to use it to knock/take your 1001 opponent down will be high.

If a technique that you have not pressure tested, 99% of the time, you won't think about using it when the time come. When your opponent comes toward you and tries to knock your head off, at that particular moment, the only move in your mind will be the move that you have used it successfully in the past under pressure. Those moves that you have not pressure test yet won't even come to your mind at that particular moment. Even the moves that have been under pressure tested, If move A had given you higher successful rate in the past than move B does, you will use move A instead of move B.

non-pressure tested moves < pressure tested moves

low successful rate pressure tested moves < high successful rate pressure tested moves

 

If his opponent only uses a right lapel hold, drops his left arm down next to his knee, when his opponent sweeps him, his left hand can grab that sweeping leg and take his opponent down. When you kick or sweep in clinch, the risk to be taken down by "single leg" is always there.

 

A groin shot is far less likely to cause "permanent, crippling damage" than knocking someone out with a punch, unless you really set it up well and you're wearing hobnail boots.

I guess I have a different view of it, as it isn't a "too nasty to spar" target for me. It's a very difficult target to get on people that are used to defending it, and once you start ramping up the speed and power it is the least of your worries really.

 

In regards to groin strikes and damage, it depends on how they are trained and used. We train kicking the small intestines or the cup (groin protection) to stun and break the posture. Even with the cup on, with a solid hit people go down from these. Sometimes taking several minutes to fully recover.

However, a full out upward power kick to the groin could have the opposite effect. The person doesn't drop at all, keeps on fighting, but later ends up going to the hospital and there has been documented cases of death.