Jeff Speakman and Paul Mills are adding ground defense techniques to Kenpo. Do you feel this is necessary? They understand Kenpo, but who is helping them with ground techniques? Should all martial arts incorporate ground fighting?
Axelton wins with the correct. In response to who is teaching them, I don't know names, but I do know one of Speakmans guys at the time they began was a blue belt in BJJ (not sure what he is now).
It depends upon their reason for training. It is not necessary if training for sport, exercise etc. If they are training for self defense then I would say it is essential. The one caveat I would make is that if they do want to learn groundfighting they should learn it from skilled practioners of other systems who are using it such as submission wrestling, sambo, bjj, judo etc. Some the ninja folks are trying to make up some of their own based upon some of their own standing grappling work and quite frankly IMO it sucks. This seems to stem from their obsession that nothing should be taken from outside their system and added My closest connection to Kempo is having 1st Dan in Kajukempo in 1986 and they didnt mind borrowing from other systems to augment their own rather just making stuff up from within. However it requires a lot of time rolling (sparring) to really learn it. The principles come first and the techniques come second. Learning just techniques without the principles is a recipe for mediocrity and failure IMO.
Should you try to reverse-engineer groundfighting from your ke_po curriculum? Absolutely not. Terrible crappling is almost always the result of that. Focus on being a good stand up art and don't step on our turf. If you wanna learn groundfighting, go to a BJJ academy.
It sure is useful to add ground fighting techniques. It only adds versatility and EFFECTIVNESS... and it only makes Kenpo better
I went to Jeff speakman 5.0 seminar and they are adding groundfighting to the sylabus. The person helping them design a system is someone called Trevor someone lol, he is a referee for the UFC tornaments and has had years of groundfighting training. Also the way kempo are adapting it is not for UFC tornaments but for the street, the system is attempting to take what is not allowed in MMA fights and incorpoate that into its ground fighting. What i learnt was only a touch on the surface, but it was very interesting and ofc effective, again this was only in the dojo.
I saw a Speakman vid where they were teaching fish hooking as a viable tactic on the ground. hopefully one day they will find out the hard way, just because it's a "dirty move" or banned from use in the UFC doesn't immediately make it a super effective move that strikes fear in BJJers and MMA fighters.
I agree with KF. Fish hooking can work but it does not replace having a good foundation in ground fighting. I think another aspect that is missed sometimes is that it isn't just technique but the body (delivery system) has to be conditioned to apply the technique. I remember having a friend whose job was to hose out a butcher shop at clean up time, maybe this is one of those freak of nature stories but he developed an incredible grip on his right hand. If he dug his fingers under most people's ribs as in fish hooking, they would not just feel it but he had the strength to do some serious real damage... although I never put it to the test to see if he could break the ribs. I sure he could have fish hooked other areas such as the face and ripped it apart with his grip. Anyway that's my big fish-hooking story...
I do think a lot of people get confused with MMA which have rules and street self fightsd where there are no rules. I beleive all styles have good and bad elements to them and a good sports fighter who is trained not to do this and not to do this, in the street some moves he will not do as its not natural to him. He might have to think about doing it rather than come natural and this time could be the matter of win or loose. A style that teaches no rules can only enhance the students ability. I once did a style that did allowed groin strikes, eye gouges, arm breaks etc etc. I thought it was an effective art but it was designed for sport. It wasnt untill i took on kenpo and tested a few other arts that i realised that arts with rules are pointless. As eye gouges, groin strikes lots of other lethal and effective strikes were allowed all became natural. Surely these illegal strikes in tornaments are the ones that do help in street fights. (Hence why there illegal as there effective) A lot of fighting again is down to the fighters mentality, but if your style teaches rules then surely the style is limited.......... If its not taught naturally over years of practice, then when it comes to a no rules fight, it wont come naturally. This is just my oppinion... I guess we all see martial arts in different lights, but i do beleive all arts have something to give, and also somethings not to give lol
It took me a long time to realize that most arts that espouse "no rules" in their training are usually pointless. Instead of training solid fundamental technique, they cop out with school-yard tactics like clawing the face, biting, pinching, and fish-hooking. In the end, all they are capable of doing is talking a really tough game, but fall apart under pressure once they got someone (especially someone skilled) trying to punch them in the face, or taking them to the pavement to unload with topside elbows. Schools that ignore that nonsense or at best follow the "Just Add Dirt" philosophy, usually put out martial artists 100's of times more capable than the aforementioned places. Article : The Myths of Self Defence (www.onedragon.com) by Luis Gutierrez These things are not illegal in MMA because they are effective, they are illegal because they are dangerous and risky, in some cases to both the fighters.
Good stuff KF, but I would not agree that "no rules" is pointless. Even when there are rules, things can happen by accident if you are open to it. For instance, I was moving into North-South position and I got poked in the eyes... or I was in side control and my training partner was working on bridging, shrimping, curly circles, he spun around and kneed me good in the face. This was stuff that happened by accident, what would it have been like if it was intentional? Either way, I learned it was important to keep the head down and protected. The eyes, throat, groin, knees, etc. are vital target locations for attack. This is why they are taught to be the first targets of opportunity if all you got is a few minutes to teach someone something they could use to protect themselves. What Luis Gutierrez is saying is not contradicting that the "dirt works" but just like what Matt Thornton writes about, it is more about "developing the delivery system." The argument goes that many schools of martial arts do not adequately develop the delivery system... more specifically the aspects of timing, movement, and energy against a resisting opponent. My rebuttal to this line of thinking in my next post.
Building an effective delivery system is an important part of martial arts training. Whether it is the ability to punch something with "heavy hands" or "submit them in a hold" it all uses a delivery system. Many methods of training kenpo utilize a mostly technique-based training where flow and technique can be developed but because it is mostly with a compliant partner, and not applied and trained against progressive resistance, such important factors such as timing are never really developed into the delivery system. This is not so much the fault of the style but more so a fault of the students that do not seek out training against progressively resisting opponents. Building a delivery system such as how it is done in many MMA schools for multiple ranges from ground to clinch to punch/kick and maybe stick is, IMHO, a very good idea. I don't have a issue with this. However, what I will take issue with is the idea of "just add the dirt" as a catch phrase. I don't agree that is an accurate way of describing things. First off, an eye rake is not the same as punching someone in the face. The technique and movement is much more subtle and employs more vigorous wrist motion like that of waving good-bye to someone at hyper speed. It is more of a shredding/ripping movement. There is much less need for expert timing to effectively deliver the payload compared to a punch. It doesn't take as long to develop as it does to develop a good punch. Furthermore, some martial artists in the past would sharpen the points of their fingernails to make the technique even more effective at ripping the eyes, throat and face. Which talks both to the mentality of those folks as well to the need to "condition" your weapons for combat. Indeed, in older days much time was spent in conditioning the weapons of the body. When an Okinawan karate master spoke of kicking someone in the throat with their big toe, it was with a big toe that they constantly conditioned as a weapon able to break boards. When an old timer conditioned the fingers to strike, it was like having a rigid stick to poke with. Knuckles were conditioned, shins conditioned... all to be weapons. So I do not agree with the analogy of "just add the dirt", more appropriately I believe the analogy, if there is one, is "just add the WEAPON." A well conditioned body part with proper technique is like adding a weapon to the mix. It is more like having a grappling match and then finding out one of them secretly has a sharp knife. The knife isn't a factor if it never gets deployed, but if it does, it is nothing trivial to deal with. Win or lose, something is going to be cut. "Just add the weapon" is what I say.
my 2 cents Here is my 2 cents, so it's just an opinion and doesn't come from intimate knowledge behind why Kenpo is adding grappling. I think that they are looking at a variety of grappling moves and trying to decide what works well with Kenpo. They want to find the best way to integrate grappling motion with existing Kenpo motion. I am not convinced the fluidity of motion is possible, but I don’t know much about grappling. I think it’s good to cross train, but I would rather get trained by a grappling expert then by a guy who is just learning it himself. I don’t care if my trainer is a 10th degree in Kenpo, if he is a newbie in Ju-jitsu then why is he trying to teach me ju-jitsu. If an instructor wants to become an expert in both and teach me fine, but until then keep it separate and don’t try to add grappiling when there is no understanding of it.
IMHO, I don't see it as adding grappling as much as learning what works in ground fighting range. You don't need to know a lot about grappling to appreciate it. You can take your kenpo training and practice it against an opponent that has his back to a wall or conversely practice it with your back to a wall. When you strike someone that is against a wall, they don't go back which is totally different than if you hit them when there is no wall behind them. Also when you miss them, you end up smashing your fist or knee or elbow into the wall. It is more a battle of inches instead of feet. And of course at close ranges, people tend to naturally push and grab each other anyway... thus you end up in a grappling situation even if you aren't intending it. Anyway, in my experience, pad up and put your training partner against a wall. This helped me to appreciate what grappling and arts like BJJ had to offer. It isn't even all grappling, even the striking techniques are different. If you note that fish hooking and knees to the legs are in some of the kenpo techniques -- these are for very close in combat where you only have inches to move instead of feet to cover.
At the end of the day, if im in a real life fight, i want to have the training to Win. ofc no fight can be taken as a win. However i want my training to incorpate all ranges of fighting and as people call it dirty fighting. We are trained in punches, kicks, et cetc as anyone doing Kenpo is. However groin strike eye rakes are another weapon to your arsnonel. If it means i have to use dirty techniques that i have been trained in to save me getting my head pummelled in i will. Being trained to use them they come naturally. Not being trained to use then i would have to think first, rather than instinct and this delay could result in a loss in the fight. We train to survive, so all variables shoudl be trained in.. dirty or not. Something ive noticed from some MMA schools ive done is as Kempo Fist so rightly put it people call it dirty fighting and a lot of MMA schools dnt train it. I dnt want to be restricted i want all options open to me. Surely thats what Martial arts is about a way to survive an attack, with all your tools ready, no matter how brutal it gets.
