Is bjj a form of budo?

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Vinny Lugo, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    It's normally considered polite to denote when you've made an edit so the the following posts don't look out of place :rolleyes:
    My point still stands , why use a Japanese term to describe something that's not Japanese ?
  2. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Why use French or Latin?

    Should we stop using all Latin to describe logical fallacies? Because there is nothing specific to ancient Rome with regards to argument.
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Because many laws are written using Latin terms , Why all the names for different martial arts ?
    Wouldn't it be much simpler if we all just boxed , kick boxed , wrestled and used wepons , rather than all those pesky foreign names ?
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    But those aren't Latin laws, or Latin arguments. They're universal, as is a term like "bu do" or "wu shu". "Ju do" is a bit more specific, granted.

    It'd be simpler, but the world isn't like that. Many different languages describe the same things.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  5. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Are you being purposely obtuse ?
    The laws are written using Latin terms , so people naturally use the Latin to quote them.
  6. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    No I'm not obtuse.

    The laws use Latin terms because Latin is a root language of rhetoric.

    Note it's not the only one, though, there is plenty of Greek in science and logic.

    I've already shown that the terms you are trying to associate with Japanese-specific things, doesn't come from Japan at all. It's a far more broad definition.
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    All kinds of Jiujitsu by definition are a type of wu dao, one of many different Chinese umbrella term for "martial art". In Japan this is pronounced "bu do", but written interchangeably with Chinese or Japanese script.

    My joke about Chinese food stands.

    Here's another one: "Chop stick".

    Who knows where the "Chop" comes from? Why do you Englishpeople keep using it? :D Why not just call them "sticks?".

    Anybody who reads/writes/speaks Japanese or Chinese knows why it's "chop".
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    why would a japanese term be universal for a nonjapanese speaker.

    Saying judo is excellent wushu, adds nothing to the conversation and makes things unclear.
  9. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Unless you're Chinese in which case it's perfectly clear.

    It's important to realize that your arguments are English-centric. It's only viewing the language through the specific lens of your own language, which is why it's ironic you'd want to throw out some languages (Japanese) and not others (French, Latin, Greek).

    Why do Jiujitsu classes count in Portuguese? Isn't that confusing? Of course it's not confusing, everyone counts in decimal, including the Japanese and Chinese (yat, yee, saam, sei...or ichi, ni..)

    I guess I'd ask you a question, what would make "bu do" confusing, since it's just the combination of two simple, literal ideograms? "The martial way" is the literal translation, so it describes practically any kind of martial arts will only appear to cover just Japanese arts if you ONLY take into the context the Japanese pronunciation, or Japanese history (ignoring China and every possible translation, e.g. English).
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  10. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Maybe this will help explain. Wu Dao/Bu Do describe the way, philosophy, et cetera of martial arts (not Japanese, but martial disciplines as a universal concept).

    Context changes things...Wu dao/Bu Do are just two pictures (武道), with vast interpretations because they are so high level, (道 is extremely abstract and can describe a million things). Ju do is more specific, based on context, so is Jiujitsu. Both are types of Bu Do, both can be described as sets of "ju jutsu" or "Wu su/shu".

    Wikipedia even has a disambiguation page on this subject...they do this for the arguments you're making, context matters. You can't just assume the only context is "English".

    Retrieved from武術_(disambiguation)

    武術 or 武术 means martial arts in East Asian languages, and may refer to:

    Bujutsu, meaning Japanese martial arts
    Musul, meaning Korean martial arts
    Võ thuật, meaning Vietnamese martial arts
    Wushu (term), meaning Chinese martial arts
    Wushu (sport), an exhibition and a full-contact sport derived from traditional Chinese martial arts
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    its English centric because this is an English language forum communicating with other English speakers, id also use terminology from an arts original country if needed.
  12. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    But, this thread asks "is BJJ a form of bu do", the answer is yes, and I've provided the linguistic evidence as to why.

    There's yet to be a cogent argument as to why it's not, because it's not debateable claim. Every argument that a martial art (name one) is not "bu do" is a formal fallacy.
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    BJJ a 道, too ('Jiu-Jitsu Lifestyle'). Adding the 'martial' hanzi/kanji is just a little extra information (context).

    If you want to make it bu do in specific context of Japanese martial arts you could say, 日本武道 (Japanese Budo)

    Brazilian Jiujitsu (巴西柔術) can be described as 巴西武道 (Brazilian bu do), but whereas the former refers to techniques, the latter is more abstract/philosophical.

    This won't make sense to an English speaker who associates "budo" with only the martial arts of Japan, but it should make perfect sense to someone who reads Chinese or Japanese (or studies these languages).
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    By your definition, is cornish shin kicking or Scottish backhold wrestling budo then?

    If so what is the main use of the terminology?
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  15. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    In plain Japanese or Chinese, it's Cornish/Scottish martial discipline, it's Cornish/Scottish bu do (yes, not to be confused with the pantheon of styles associated with Japanese Budo).

    In other words "Sūgélán Budo" means something in Japanese, whether or not anybody in particular agrees with the statement. It would be heard as "Scotland's Martial Way", which is obviously not enough context to know it's catch wrestling vs. boxing, but at the very least it would be understood as "Scottish martial art".

    These are the linguistic meaning of the terms, so it's more akin to saying they are the Chinese/Japanese definitions. But even 'definition' and 'Terminology' itself might be a poor choice of terms here. The reality is these are not words, but pictures. In most cases, it's an idea being portrayed, not something as definitive as a set of terms in English. BUT, we can translate between the two and if we do it right, we lose no information (even if we don't get the fine point across, the general points are transmitted).

    In English, or spoken Asian languages, we're used to dealing with 'terms', but Bu do is the combination of two ideographic Chinese logograms.

    It helps to break the pictographs/logographs down to elements.

    武 (Bu) =

    戈 (weapon)
    止 (which means stop in modern script, but foot in ancient writing)

    Their semantic (context specific) composite is "military" or "martial". Whether in China or Japan, this would mean anything from anywhere on the globe that was martial or military in any respect.

    Then by adding 道 (do) is simply implying a doctrine or philosophy related to military or martial disciplines.

    The fewer hanzi/kanji, the broader the interpretation, typically, unless you're talking about pictographs that are semantically specific (and not as contextually dependent), like Judo, or Zen. Those are very specific things. Budo is everything that was and will be 1) martial and 2) doctrine of some sort, inside or outside of Japan.

    Ultimately my point is not that Brazilian Jiujitsu is "Japanese", but that linguistically, it is bu do. That's all. In fact, you could use the term to communicate with native speakers and they'd (probably) understand what you meant.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    And so, is there any good reason to use japanese terms to describe a british martial sport to english speaking people?
  17. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    To make yourself feel superior ?
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    To bamboozle potential students?
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Yes, to help the British and english speaking people understand more about their martial cousins in the far East, and how much they have in common, the point of comparing language is to communicate and understand different cultures and how they are the same in many respects, even when terms are different.

    The terms 'Tao' and 'Zen' are used universally. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. The Tao of Pooh.

    Bartitsu? A portmanteau of Barton and Jujitsu. Obviously Barton-Wright believed there was a good reason. The reason being, it was jiujitsu.

    Is Bartitsu bu do? Certainly.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your coming up with your own questions to answer.

    Why would you describe an english wrestling style using asian terminology, surely its more likely to mislead then inform.

Share This Page