Is Aikido to complicated to use in a REAL fight???

If you can parry with weapons fast then of course you can with fast punchs, you MUST practice though. Practice with someone who knows punching.

 

At the risk of derailing my own thread I have a question for all you wise Aikidoka's... (this is semi-related though)

I've heard some folks tell me that strikes are used in this system, that I don't doubt. But I've heard that some basic kicks are taught as well and that really suprised me... Here's a list of the strikes and the kicks that were told to me exist in some Aikido systems


Shomen uchi Overhead strike to the head

Yokomen uchi Strike to the side of the head

Mune tsuki Straight thrust (punch) to the chest

Men tsuki Straight thrust (punch) to the face

Kata dori men uchi Shoulder grab, punch to the face

...Now none of the above suprised me it only made me more interested to dig deeper upon which, I was told these "kicks" are in the syllabus as well. Now, if that' true, why don't you see more Aikidoka's occasionally useing this "kicks"???

Mae geri Front kick

Yoko geri Side kick

Mawashi geri Roundhouse kick

 

Regarding quick/non- commited attacks. Evade and parry as you normally would but dont target the attacking hand/arm if it is moving too fast to gain control of. There are other targets of opportunity, the neck, the other arm, sometimes the torso or leg. When you apply the technique it will be very much static and you may have to be creative about taking the initial balance but aiki will give you the tools to do just that.

But just like any other martial art, its the ability of the artist, not the art.

 

for me sir kick and punch are only use as atemi.

 

Kicks are rarely seen at lower levels of Aikido. There are a few reasons for this:-

Posture: a great deal of time is spent trying to get people to keep good posture, (centred, aware etc) so most applications are taught as the hands moving from the centre.

Distance: trying to keep people outside the range of an attack (even if only one inch). The different spacing (ma-ai) used in Aiki usually negates the threat of kicks (and indeed punches, which is part of the reason why most 'attacks' seen in aiki are useless - because the buggers dont learn them properly).

Leading: Trying to teach the principles of redirection (even if you are redirecting it straight back into their face, it isn't always gentle) against kicks opens a whole can of worms.

Rolling: many Aikidoka develop the ability to roll in any direction (in a sphere not a circle) which they would lose by raising their foot or extending it. (This may seem a minor point, however the abilty to 'absorb and roll' is a large part of Aikido)

Striking: Aikidoka just do not spend the time developing strikes that..er....striking arts do.

 

If you think the attacks in Aikido ar useless its because your attitude to the attacks is very wrong.
When i was attcked in japan with the same attacks they are so bloody deadly, one reason isd because they understand weapons better. I new that if i didnt blend properly with the attacks my face would be spread across the tatami. They are so effective to real life attacks. if your attitude is real.
So when doing yokomen the attitude must be like a hook punch or ken strike.
when doing shomen it must reflect reality like a bottle over the head or a strike straight up under the jaw.
All the rest are the same just think about it and try to make it as real as poss. even when slow it must be committed with no staggering or delays if they dont move they will get a sore head or face this is reality.
As for kicks. i remember saito sensei being asked why there are no kicks in aikido, and he said one reason is you are always leading uke of balance or pinning his feet to the ground( as pat cassidy says) so they cant kick.
Aikido is as real as you want it to be or as fake as you want it to be.
I can understand peoples thoughts on the attacks being strange because they appear very unortherdox.
Its also very difficult for some one with no martial training to walk into aikido and be good at attacks. where as say a boxer or karateka or tkd person will no good fast relaxed and powerful attacks which if they think about will help so much. Plus WEAPONS are there to understand stroong attacks and thereto help you recieve strong attacks

 

thats true. aikido is use because armor used on late period has a weakness on the wrist.

 

Excellent question. Thing is, if you want the honest answer, do this...
Look up your local police, the armed forces for your country, local doorman training, i guarantee a majority of the training is aikido based.
I know the British army use aikido in the Sherwood foresters and in the ??????Royal Marines, and i know Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire and Manchester Met Police forces use Aikido, i personally know and have trained with a few doorman, and even a jewellery courier that prefer aikido over other arts.
All these people are subject to adrenal rushes, emotions, fear, they are human, but you have to wonder why they choose aikido and not another art for these purposes.

 

the best thing i've learned from aikido books is on how to use your opponents' neck to subdue their multiple attacks..

and that needs no practice!

 

eliem iv: Could you explain what you mean by that?

Also as a general note I think the reason people question Aikidos effectiveness is for a few fairly legit reasons though I do accept that they vary from school to school.

1. Aikido techniques are undeniably complex when compared to most striking arts and many grappling arts

2. Aikido doesnt employ resisting opponents

3. Most Aikido people admit it takes a lot longer to get to a level of profficency in Aikido that allows you to defend yourself

4. You learn evasive footwork in Aikido but to dodge and parry quicker blows footwork is not particularly suitable unless you try keeping your distance

5. the lack of sparring (A tool to help with judging distance and improving reactions) is absent in Aikido

 

I don't know much about Aikido (although I am interested almost to obsession... all I have is a JKD dojo and it's doing great for now), but I know that learning from videos is at least a hundred times more difficult than learning from a skilled instructor.

And it can't possibly be effective if only four hours long.

I've tried to use martial arts from movies(even worse than instruction videos, my hand got worn out more from pausing, playing, slow-motioning, stopping, than it did from using the techniques), distinguishing between the possible and the [currently] impossible, and it's very difficult because there's no one to show you if it's right or wrong. You'd have to hire someone to spar with you after every ten minutes of the show to see if what you've learned is worth anything.

I'd like to see someone who spent four hours on their ass fight someone who goes to a dojo five days a week for two hours for years fight. Now that would be funny.

 

Do you think that Karate or Judo technique and principles are EASY ?

I think there are some Shodokan students here who will argue that point with you. However; if an application like Irimi Nage is being applied correctly and with some degree of spirit, would you want to resist against a potential (and serious) neck injury ? Ok, so many aikido schools are OTT when it comes to the compliance levels between Uke and Tori but, to generalise with your previous statement is a but over zealous.

Herein lies a very important factor that "most" forget to ask themselves... "Why do I study Aikido" Aikido isn't primarily a "self defense" form. Indeed I would be the first to admit there are several other systems out there which have greater impact on the student for 'the street' Aikido isn't one of them IMHO My advice to any student wanting the learn "self defense" (and nothing else) is to study something else.

Eh ? There really isn't such a thing as "evasive footwork" what you do with your feet reflects what your body does as a result - tai sabaki - posture or body management. But I still fail to grasp your point here?

Again our Shodokan members will give you several arguments regarding this point however, pick up a bokken or jo, learn the kumitachi/kumijo and you have "sparring" within most styles of aikido that teach exactly those things - timing - distance - posture.

Dave

 

I agree with all of the above from Dave and Aikiscotsman. In Shudokan (Yoshinkan) the 'freestyle' attacks by Uke are supposed to be totally committed, full of the energy Tori requires to apply the techniques dynamically. Of course, you take account of the skill of the Tori, and by 1st Dan these attack were, in the words of our Soke, to 'bring Tori close to death'. Unless we are properly trained in attack how can we possibly give each other practice at the appropriate level?

There's an Aikido style and teacher to suit just about every need, I reckon, so do a bit of research and make some visits. I would advise looking at Shorinji Kempo as well.

Then stick to one style and train, train, train......then train a bit more. You'll need more than techniques for a real fight, however:

My own club has included military personnel, police, door staff etc who have all used what they learned to good effect, even though the attacks were not by MA students but angry/drugged/streetfighters etc. and the weapons were baseball bats, knives, machettes etc rather than the jo or tanto. (In fairness, we do train with modern street weapons as well.)

IMHO, with 'real' fights it comes back to the old adage: ' What wins a fight - is it the dog in the fight or the fight in the dog?'. Aikido prepares your spirit and mind as well as your body. Good fighters I've seen/heard of in 'street' situations control anger, control power (timing, distance and balance) and exhibit confidence ('assertiveness') even when afraid. They sometimes don't need to fight at all because of their demeanour. Some of that may be innate but I've seen Aikido change a lot of people for the better in that respect.

So, no - Aikido's not too complicated for a 'real fight' because although you may learn a technique more quickly in another art, you become better equipped to fight as you mature in your art. But don't get cocky - we have plenty of guns in the UK now!

 

Aikido can be used as effective means of self-defense. The only problem is that is can take many years to properly learn it. If you're looking for a self-defense art, i would suggest something else. Something that is easier and quicker to learn. If you want to develop a higher level of understanding, stay with aikido. Hopefully within 5-7 years, you'll feel comfortable to use it.

 

I would think after the first few practices a student should be able to see Aikidos potential. After 6 months to a year they should at least be comfortable avoiding attacks.

Five to seven years however takes most students to 1st/2nd dan. If the student isn't comfortable by this time one would have to ask, what have they been studying all that time and what on earth is the teacher teaching?

It might take years to develop your Aikido skill to a level that will impress outsiders. It shouldn't however take a student years to learn to protect them selves.

 

By comparison? Yes, alot more so because they appeal to the natural instinct of hitting someone, that is to say smcking someone in the face (Gross simplification I know )

Fair enough but to me thats close to saying that Aikido isnt as effective as other martial arts

The body can bob and move without having the feet move at all, look at how a boxer dodges punches without surrendering ground to an opponent.

But in that case why not actually include sparring without weapons? A large part of the philosophy of Aikido seems to me to be taken as meaning that sparring shouldnt be done, why is it different to do so with weapons? (Im assuming that is what kumitachi/kumijo is).

I suppose what I really want to see is Aikido going wrong, situations where someone gets thrown but instead of falling they grab hold of the throwers shirt and hold on so the thrower has to do something else, I never see an Aikido technique that doesnt work due to the actions of an attacker.

 

I don't take as much interest in boxing as I used to. But it's fairly normal for boxers to move their feet almost continuously. Danceing on their toes in many cases. I can't remember any boxers off the top of my head who faught flat footed.

It happens all the time. Do a google search for some videos and pay close attention. You'll see a good number of people compensating to make techniques work.

 

Aikiwolfie, you have to remember, most Aikido styles do not strike. They're relying on 'taking ones center', or whatever that means. So 6 months to a year might be long enough to avoid an attack, well so is walking the other way. So if you have a person that's been training to punch and kick, 6 months to a year is plenty. On the other hand, if you have an Aikido person training for 5 years, the complexity is much greater than to simply punch and kick. How many times have you done randori and gotten clocked? I mean a real randori.... There's your answer. You could train for 1 year or 20 years, it takes time to feel comfortable using what you know.

 

Really? I thought all Aikido styles had atemi. Regardless of whether or not the atemi that is taught is good enough to be useful in a real fight, what do you mean by "most Aikido styles do not strike".

 

I mean they either don't make contact or don't teach the atemi properly. Perhaps I should have said schools rather than styles. I realise it doesn't applie to ALL schools and there are people here like my self who do make use of proper atemi. But it does seem to be a problem in Aikido that atemis are not being taught or are not being taught properly any longer.