Is Aikido designed for defence against an untrainned attacker?

That's one of the best things I've read here for a long time, Thank you for that.

Regards

 

The confusion regarding irrimi omote ura tenkan can be easily explained.When executing irrimi we called the technique irrimi and the same when executing tenkan we called the techniques tenkan techniques.Then the terms were changed to omote and ura. When I asked why. The explanation was irrimi is the body movement as is tenkan. Omote is the direction of the technique across the front ura is the technique applied behind the attack. For history buffs The Omote Yagyu is the history of the swordschool dealing with the posts as teachers to the Tokugawa shoguns. The Ura Yagyu deals with the involvment of ninja and subtefuge on behalf of the shoguns. So if you like Omte=up front Ura =? Anyway keep it simple guys.It was just a mistake in translation that we first generation aikidoka were guilty of.

Koyo

 

How about this description of a good aikido instructor? Remorseless(in training), ruthless (in pointing out weeknesses)but utterly without MALICE No brutality there Dave.
Chiba shihan said "I do not have time therefore I MAKE MY STUDENTS LEARN."
Another interesting point I was not so much "taught" I was simply placed in situations where I had to learn for myself. Proving that EXPERIENCE IS MORE VALUABLE THAN RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE,For instance I once "foolishly" told Chaba shihan that I at times found difficulty with the ukemi for his irrimi nage.
Without a word he "taught" me the ukemi by continualy throwing me for about fifteen hours (minutes actually but it felt like hours!!) I did not remember any of the details of the ukemi I simple experienced how to perform it. I suppose he MADE ME LEARN.
By the way no need to thank me for the don't change the art quote. Like any smart ass I was just telling you something that you already know. It makes me sound quite intelligent.

kOYO

 

Imagine someone attempts to stick a knife in you stomach and you twist/enter to the side avoiding the thrust while slashing down with the edge of your hand into the nerves at the elbow joint while simultaneously backfisting him on the temple. This would have the effect of bringing his head downward.For an instant he is stunned you press his head down and close the hand on the inside of his elbow and throw his arm over his head. It works, I have done it and it is called kaiten nage.There is no need to pass under the arm to execute kaiten nage.












Koyo

 

Yoksha - clubs and styles call themselves all sorts of things, and none is more confusing than being labelled Aiki'do' or Aiki'jutsu' . I've seen so many come and go that I think the labels are pointless, mostly because of the spurious claims of 'jutsu' clubs to be tough 'Dragons' or some other tosh.

Many techniques which can kill or maim are taught by many clubs of all delineations and they mostly seek to practice in the dojo without killing or maiming each other, whilst being aware that on the street those techniques may cause severe damage as 'jutsu'.

The point about causing your attacker minimum harm is just a diversion - surely no self respecting MA practitioner of any art or lineage would seek to cause excessive harm - there's no need. I think you are claiming that the philosophies differ, but IMHO there is no evidence to support it. Can you show me evidence that a 'jutsu' student will kill or maim when a 'do' student would not? IMHO any martial art of worth teaches minimum force and damage.

I'm think you are trying to explain how 'do' dojo stuff needs to be changed for street 'jutsu' application, but I think you are being a little simplistic. I have used shomen-ate on the street exactly as I would in the dojo, so no change needed there. Other techniques may need changing to a degree, but this depends to a great extent on the attack you face and your ability, etc.

I have no idea what you mean by 'do' arts having a spiritual element while 'jutsu' does not - surely the whole development of the spirit is what enables good jutsu to be executed. (A mind-set empty of fear and full of power in harmony with a strong spirit - in other words'Aiki', whether 'do' or 'jutsu'.)


I've taken part briefly in Daito Ryu and a modern form of Jujutsu and find no difference in their attitude to application outside the dojo to that which I find in Aikido organisations. Surely Aikido practitioners may apply their art in 'jutsu' outside the dojo, so what is the difference you seek to establish?

Please tell us which 'Jutsu' ryu you know of which does not use minimum force and which has no 'spirit' at its core. Ta.

 

I at times lose interest in long drawn out discussions on such topics as the spiritual dimension of aikido wherein in it is obvious that the writers shall agree to disagree. Never has any of the shihan spoke at great lengths on this topic to me. I was once asked to describe my thoughts on the spiritual aspects of aikido to a small group of aikido shihan. Typically I did not think long on my answer I simply just spoke my mind at the time. My answer was GET KNOCKED DOWN EIGHT TIMES GET UP NINE TIMES!! To me that is the spiritual side of aikido. That was one of the very few times I was complemented on my understanding of aikido by a Japanese shihan.Note there was no mention at all about knocking someone else down!!

Koyo

 

I've said several times on this forum that in many instances, people get far too involved in the 'spiritual' association of aikido rather than the other way around.

Aikido is a fighting art, it may be a subtle fighting art but a fighting art never the less; when we spend more time trying to "find" spiritual development in the philosophy of the art rather than let the training develop us through the struggle of budo, what we're left with is a meaningless and empty journey.

Regards

 

Dave
I thought you might like to know that the first lessons I ever had in aikido were from Kenshiro Abe on one of his visits to Scotland to promte judo.. My main teacher Chiba shihan was sent to Britain because Kenshiro Abe approached O Sensei. Nakazono and Noro shihans among others were all invited by Abe shihan as was Harada sensei of karate. On my website the photo of Noro shihan is in the Hut dojo. I missed the historical debate.In a nutshell Ellis sensei is true the othere version is BULL!!

Koyo

 

Indeed Bill, both you and I know that, shame on the British Aikido Board and the sycophants therein who didn't/wouldn't see the light and listen to reason.

Will you be attending 'their' attempt at celebrating the UK's 50th year ? Most people I've talked too on this matter have very mixed feelings, I'm guessing from those opinions, this year's BAB seminar will be just a flop as was year before last. Taking in to consideration Chiba Sensei's anniversary seminar in October of this year (40 years since he first arrived here) I think this might have a marked effect on the interest in the BAB's plans in what has already been celebrated (last year at Crystal palace).

Regards

 

Hi Dave
Now you know why I have a distinct dislike for politics! I have a few rare photos from Grange farm I would like to send to Ellis sensei. Sad that we need photographic proof of the early years. Is there an e mail for him? Sensei Ellis mentions teaching Tomio Otani aikido at Grange farm. I became friends with Otani sensei during that summer school. I taught him a few chords on the guitar.(In the ladies loo because the acoustics were better!!!) There are some great stories about Grange Farm. Perhaps some other time.The makotokai shall be giving a demo and taster class at the 2006 IKET in Edinburgh. If anyone from the nine circles is there please say hello.

Koyo

 

Bill,

I wouldn't call the Ellis/BAB/Jack Poole issue a political problem, not at all. It was one of setting the record straight. People simply didn't like their "status quo" being ruffled against the stark truth of reality. In my opinion these types of sycophantic numpties don't deserve to represent the interests of British Aikido, not to mention the idiots who fabricate a martial arts history to justify themselves being a 7th or 8th dan. Unfortunately I can name you a growing number of people right here in the UK who have questionable lineages and claim the most senior of yudansha grades and the title of Shihan, both without providence of anyone other than their own organisation or, some worthless 3rd party body.

I'm much like you, I detest politics but there comes a time when morals and principles become expensive things; and if people don't stand up and be counted, those idiots who would run rough-shod over others would simple get away with it. I guess my willingness to put myself in the firing-line of political criticism stems from my military days.

I hope you're not left with the wrong impression of me, I am not a political/war mongerer; I'm just someone with strong morals and principles who has been/is quite willing to stand up and be counted when required.

I'll PM you Ellis Sensei's email address.

Regards

 

Hi Dave
I still hold you in high regard sharing your distaste for politics. I was just angry that someone (not you) had attempted to minimise Kenshiro Abe shihans lifetimes work. After O Sensei Abe shihan is possibly the most important figure in the history of United (united?) Kingdom aikido and should be remembered as such. I know because I was there!!

Best regards and keep standing up

Koyo