Is Aikido designed for defence against an untrainned attacker?

You train with a live tanto? As in a pointy, edged, metal one? Do you do this with a partner? Could you elaborate please?

If it's what I got the impression you're doing, it seems like a terrible idea. The bennefits of training with a live blade are relatively few compared to the dangers.

 

I have taught aikido and tanto waza to S A S troopers and they kept the knifes in the sheath. By accident a sheatrh fell off and the attacker received a crushing blow to the temple before being thrown. If the knife and the attack is real then the techniques must be real this would include atemi and breaking techniques. I cannot see how this can be practiced realistically.

Koyo

 

That's why I was questioning how he trained. It doesnt seem possible to use a live blade for training and make it realistic enough without risking injuring/killing your partner.

By the way, where is glasgow? I'd be interested in training with someone of your expierience, but I fear it's far away.

 

I was thinking about adding my own comments but I tend to annoy Aikidoka. I'll leave that for the denizens of Aikiweb.

 

So why bother pressing the "Post Reply" button and adding entirely pointless content to this thread then ?

By all means contribute to the thread but don't add content which has absolutely no value to the discussion - as with your current post.

Regards

 

As a student I trained with a live blade however the attacks were not full speed and was always predetermined. Some years later and with a bit more experience and understanding I've realised I'd rather be attacked with a wooden tanto and the effort behind that attack be committed and strong than using a blade just for the sake of it.

I accept that there is a degree of psychology involved when facing a sharp blade of some description however; the dojo isn't the place where the body gets the adrenalin dump akin to an actual fight and I just don't see the merits of working with a live blade and trying to make that environment 'realistic' I see the risks vastly outweighing the advantages.

I remember someone saying "assume your attacker is always armed" (or words to that effect) thus; I personally try to teach waza which is intended for weapon's use (on the part of the attacker) even when empty hands are what are being employed. I don't consider having kihon waza for weapon's disarming and kihon waza for empty handed situations as being a sound strategy; one should be the same as the other. If that is the case then what counts is the technique, not whether the person has a live or wooden knife at hand.

I'm of the opinion that if an instructor is training a student's mind and body and not just focusing on the mechanical workings of waza, the difference between working with a blade and working with a wooden tanto is nothing more than psychological. This barrier can be easily overcome by conditioning the student to have less interest in the knife and far more about controlling (it) through control of the person. Indeed *if* working with tanto is so very important to establishing credibility of one's waza and confidence thereof; surely it should feature in training at a much greater level. I don't share that opinion frankly, yes waza should be effective but not at the risk of being unsafe or, taking such risks that statistically, the odds are that someone is going to be killed or very seriously injured. Sometimes I think we forget or lack perspective. Whilst we may live in a society of violent crime, we are not as civilians training for war nor do we need to adopt a "samurai" mentality simply because we study a martial art.

Indeed when I was learning to parachute in the RAF Regiment, we were taught to remedy 'line-overs' and other minor malfunctions and, instructed in the method of jettisoning the main canopy and deploying the reserve, how many times was I required to actually do that in training just to make the learning process realistic? None. And yep I've had several situations where I've had to take remedial action in actual drops (none involving the reserve thankfully) so my point is, if you train someone correctly in both the physical and the psycological aspects of the art, you don't need to take vast risks in attempting "realism", the upshot of "realism" is often potential injury or death.

Regards

 

saturnine138:
I'm experiencing 'deja-vu' here as I answered this point ages ago - or maybe that was in my last incarnation?

It is not the fact that a live tanto is used, but how we deploy it which makes the Shudokan style (derived from Yoshinkan) perhaps a little different. here's the process:
Shudokan builds up 'jiyuwaza' freestyle over the years, from a beginner receiving punches at a suitable pace, later building in wooden tanto attacks which are predetermined (e.g. Yokomen ). After several years of practice, the 1st dan grading includes random attacks with a live tanto. Yes,there are some restrictions, e.g we don't throw the thing at each other or kill uke, and if tori stuffs up totally uke tries not to kill him. It was generally accepted that Tori would execute at least 15-20 good techniques. Should anyone be less than perfect or repeat a technique they may have to carry on until they have satisfied the Sensei.

The idea is that a skilled disarming takes place and the knife is placed on the floor ready for uke to pick up and attack again. Other than that, attacks are intended to make tori believe they are coming 'close to death'. Yes, there have been injuries: one panicked and put his hand in from of his belly and got it skewered, others grabbed the blade in error (perhaps too much wooden tanto practice and not enough steel) , one was hit on the head (a nick).

Dave's point is very valid: sometimes, if they have not had this progressive training, uke may be more frightened of committing a 'full on' attack with a live tanto, but be quite happy to 'go for it' with a wooden one. IMHO a wooden tanto is still a highly dangerous weapon, particularly when striking the head or neck, so it shouldn't be treated any less seriously.

Tori, at this high level, must be both well trained and psychologically prepared to deal with fast and hard live tanto - so must uke, and I've seen them stuff up more often than the person being graded.

I also endorse Dave's point about focussing on the technique and not the weapon. However, it is surprising how many get 'phased' when a steel blade is presented. When demonstrating a particular technique we gradually introduce the steel tanto (not sharp at this level) to students so that they gently learn this familiarity and then genuinely focus on the attack rather than the weapon. Judging timing and distance is critical, not what the weapon is made of. However, at Dan grade it was expected that you would face the live tanto precisely because of this - it should make little difference to your performance of good techniques.

All in all, if you are well trained in tanto jiyuwaza, it has a profound psychological effect, some becoming over-confident, and our Sensei would always make it clear that, however good we were on the mat, we are still likely to get cut in a street confrontation. However, we may also be less likely to get killed and would be in a better position to defend ourselves than someone who may panic at the sight of a blade. On the few occasions when faced with street violence I can say that it helped both psychologically and in terms of applicable techniques, even though I have not trained at a high level with a live tanto for several years. I believe Shudokan in the UK still uses them. www.shudokan.info

 

I dont believe the risk of injury is worth using a live blade. Everyone messes up sometimes, I'd rather get the wind knocked out of me by a wooden tanto than be skewered by a live blade. Even if you gradually build up to it, there's still mistakes. You can get fairly close to a live blade with the trainers they have available now, and not have to risk injuring your partner. I still fail to see how it coulld be realistic unless they are actually trying to stab you, in which case, if you mess up you get stabbed.

I apologize if I brought the thread off topic.

 

I think what Kiaiki is describing (relating to the Shudokan training methodology) is fairly rare in terms of the emphasis of "street wise" applications and the number of actual aikido clubs/schools teaching it). Whilst I admire [to a degree] people/schools who focus on this aspect of their training I also firmly feel that this is not, in the truest sense "aikido"; it is more akin to aiki-jujutsu. That said, I did say in one of my earlier posts that I feel our training should have more of a jutsu emphasis but, I was referring to origin rather than modern-day application.

I make no apology to students who may walk through my dojo door expecting to be taught 'uber self defence' because that's not what we teach, indeed search these forums and you'll see me say several times that I'm more interested in the origin of the art than where it fits with modern self defence.

Naturally I have to be sure that I'm still moving with the times and the continual development of the system but, as with my interest in Iaido, I'm not looking to make every single waza "street" effective because this may change the emphasis on why the technique is performed in a particular way. There are enough people doing this already and, if you will all excuse my tone; many of these people haven't got a friggin' clue about orthodox aikido never mind create something which they arrogantly 'think' is better in some way.

Regards

 

Saturine!!
Where is Glasgow indeed? It is in Braveheart country Scotland and you would be most welcome to train with us.By the way where is A Dorm can't find it on the map.

Koyo

 

In the early days of training it was stressed that Every Time we applied a technique it would be effective whether a knife was involved or not. Often we would perform a technique against an empty hand attack then uke would attack with a knife. If adjustments other than maai were needed then our initial technique against the empty hand was deamed to be incorrect.This resulted in a pragmatic approach that disallowed all the spinning aroung often seen. A major principle. THE ATTACKER IS CAUSED TO SPIN, TURN AND SPIRAL AROUND THE AIKIDOKA. NOT THE OPPOSITE.

kOYO

 

I'm currently in school in new york, which is, as I feared, quite far from Scotland. Is there anyone here in new york you've trained with and would recommend?

 

Hi Saturnine

I think that one of the shihan that I trainind under ,Yamada Shihan, is based in New York. He is excellent and very approachable. If you can find his dojo I would highly recommend attending.He has a very pragmatic no nonsense approach. Best wishes from Scotland!!

Bill Coyle
Check out makotokai.co.uk

 

I posted this last year: http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=545229&#post545229

That's my spin on things, but I can see how it relates to "A major principle. THE ATTACKER IS CAUSED TO SPIN, TURN AND SPIRAL AROUND THE AIKIDOKA. NOT THE OPPOSITE." Although I have not come to master such things, I have much difficulty in particular getting this concept to work well when I am on one knee or on the ground. I have much work still to do.

There is some movement to gain good position and spacing for a technique, but the application of technique, IMHO, is very direct and it should not at that point require great amounts of movement by tori to be effective.

Thank you for the insightful and concise posts koyo, and Dave and I always have a bit of a long dialogue between us.

My question which popped in my head thinking about this thread is in the use of tripping and leg sweeps. In the karate I haved studied and in Judo, there is a common use of sweeps and trips to down an opponent quickly. For example, ikkyo would be done in karate with a breaking motion to the arm while sweeping out the leg of uke, causing them to fall face first to the ground.

These are not common in Aikido to my knowledge. Any insights on the reasons?

Note: I don't find the sweeps necessary myself but they can be very effective. The only big issue for me when practicing them is with safety. Uke can take a very bad fall, and even tori is vulnerable if the sweep is not done right and uke falls an tori's extended leg.

On a related note: I have found that positioning to the side of uke and dropping straight down while applying ikkyo works very well, even against uke that are more than 150 pounds heavier than me. This has almost no foot movement except to set up the technique.

 

I wasnt really looking for a dojo, as I already have one. I just liked the way Koyo said he trained and was wondering if there was anyone that trained like that over here. You both recomended Yomada Shihan, I attended his Christmas Seminar this year, and had a good time. It was only a seminar, so I didnt get to see how they usually train, but he looked impressive. My sensei also recomended him, and her son sometimes teaches at his dojo. I would love to Uchi Deshi there, but I've discovered Aikido a bit too late and am already in debt from college loans and cant afford to take the time to do it. I do plan to eventually train there, maybe for a summer or two.

 

I stayed in New York a few years ago and trained at Yamada Sensei's dojo. I was made very welcome as a visitor, excellent aikido as well !!

Regards

 

I agree with Dave's analysis of some of the clubs springing up as 'Aikido' that have no trace of the art we all know, and also that 'reactive' Aikido should not be the only method taught. I've found worse, though - one explained Aikido to me as 'It's weapons like nunchucks' when handing out leaflets on the street. As I've never chucked a nun I don't think this is quite right!

As to the tanto and 'real' fighting issue, I agree that a strong foundation in Aikido comes first - the application to modern weapons is then possible, as is its application to unarmed 'street' attacks. In this context, proactive or even pre-emptive methods are very relevant, allowed in English law if you feared that you were in danger, but be sure to get it right and have witnesses as UK police are just as likely to book you for assault ar the person you faced.

Some Aikido dojos restrict weapons to jo, bokken and tanto and that is fine - in fact none of our Shudokan syllabus for gradings went outside of this. I've also trained with groups that do no jo or bokken work at all!

However, I make no excuse for the fact that we explored baseball bat, chain, bottle etc etc on occasion and found Aikido to provide a mental and physical platform for all sorts of defence. This does not mean the Aikido was any less traditional or formal (direct Sensei lineage back to Shioda) but that we chose to also explore the 'jutsu' aspect in a modern context as well. I put this in the past tense as Shudokan has moved on since I last trained and I am not their spokesperson.

 

If you look at Daito Ryu and their waza (which we call ikkyo ude osae), it involves sweeping the leg(s) of the opponent, I find that particularly useful if one has an awkward partner however; when making a more "aikido" specific ikkyo I tend not to "sweep" the leg but, drive my hips through the posture of my uke, this has exactly the same effect (lifting and dropping uke) without having to specifically ashi-barai.

[edit] If fact, I'll post a few pictures tomorrow evening after class to illustrate.

Regards

 

Hi Guys
AS far as your description of foot (body) movement you are saying exactly what Saito shihan (the elder) said. THE SECRET OF AIKIDO IS IN THE TRIANGLES. As for having difficulty executing the techniques in this way. I think it is because we often concentrate on the techniques that bit more than the principles. Timing, distancing and astute use of kuzushi (unbalancing) will make the technique work most powerfully.
As far as foot sweeps other than the aikidoka's natural reticance to take one foot off the ground when the art depends on constant balance and mobility there are ARA WAZA techniques where this is used. Ara waza are "severe " techniques applied about three times faster than normal techniques which allow for ukemi. But that is another thread. However since aikido is based on sword PRINCIPLES (another thread?) There is a sword technique used when the swordsmen may have closed during combat called tai tari this means to strike with the body. Being quite small (a nasty karateka friend once said that I would have to jump into a pool of water twice to get one splash) I was shown by Sekiya shihan 6th dan Kashima and Katori Shinto Ryu and sixth dan aikido how when executing ikkyo just when the final cut to the last kuzushi is to be executed you simply crash your hip against uke,s already unbalanced hip to effect the technique.
More words of wisdom for you . WE MUST NOT CHANGE THE ART WE MUST TRAIN SO THAT THE ART CHANGES US.

kOYO