*Rings Buzzer* Katadori originates from a grab for the sheathed sword. The way I see it used is as the easiest establishment of contact between Uke and Tori, enabling them to practice. I think that is its primary use in my Dojo, but there are probably other uses including...a practical way of dealing with a grab for the wrist. EDIT: Oops...make that a grab for the wrist about to draw the sword.
Dear Mr Smith are we going to stand for this censuring of our free speach? I could always post to you and you could post to me and we could thwart his dastardly plan Young people today!!! Koyo
Totally lost this plot folks. IMHO Aikido includes striking. We train in atemi which is attacking in nature, don't we? What is grappling? We have many techniques which begin and end on the ground, but if we consider the term, aren't all our locks and many of our throws (such as all the udegarami throws) a form of grappling? As to weapons - my Aikido style (Shudokan, derived from Yoshinkan) uses jo, bokken, tanto (up to and including random 'live' steel tanto attacks) and is also practised in and out of the dojo against a range of modern weapons such as baseball bat, bottle, sword kubotan etc etc. Sonshu - No offence, as I don't know what styles of Aikido you have practised or for how long, but your categorisation seems to be awry on this one.
At the time before Aikido was founded, the Aiki Jujutsu did not separate grappling from striking or any other artificial divisions. It was a combat system which integrated striking, grappling, grabs, projections, etc. Even the mental aspects and strategies of combat were addressed. Aikido in much the same way is not a pure grappling art because it incorporates striking and the other aspects of combat as well as elements of grappling. Katatedori is an attack, although the simplified grabs done in Aikido basics are only done in one set manner most of the time, the actual grab as an attack could come from any direction. Koyo has already mentioned his strong wrists. A person of strength like that or more so could use katatedori to control and immobilize an enemy. If attacked in such a way from an uke of great strength, tori must learn to move instinctively to escape, starting with the bending of the knees. To hesitate may not work in battle and would leave tori as good as dead. I have heard rumors that youths in gangs are employing ushiro ryosodedori in their "street fighting training" in some areas in the United States. I have not taken the time to confirm this, however. Ushiro ryosodedori is a grab of the arms from behind. I would not doubt that this attack is thousands of years old, but even it if wasn't, it was used in the past enough that whole series of escape techniques were created in systems to combat this grab. I have been told that "combat" monks would employ ushiro ryosodedori with a kick to the lower back to break both of the arms/shoulders of the enemy. Katatedori training, IMHO, is first for learning basics, but later can be used against uke much bigger and stronger than tori, as one of the aspects of self-defense.
Rebel Wado Have you seen the film Red Beard by Kurosawa starring Mifune. In it he grabs a villian in double sankyo from behind. With a sankyo on each wrist he then thrust kicks him in the spine. One of my all time OOOCH!! scenes in a film. Edit Dave I have not mentioned ryote dori, I am biding my time!! koyo
I would suggest that katatedori is in fact a "counter" and not a specific attack. I would also suggest that grabbing a wrist is also the pre-cursor to making a much more practical application. (see Koyo's post) I suggest this because of the dynamics involved in control. If there isn't a need to grab a person's wrist why do so ? When grabbing a wrist/arm you limit your own options, the only reason I can see for justification in grabbing a wrist (either in a modern or old context) is to attempt an absolute control over a weapon being held in that particular hand (even if that control is only momentary) to enable something else to happen. Given that an adversary isn't going to simply let you grab and control one of their arms, I additionally suggest the 'grabbing' would be done as part of awase, in other words; as one is attacked with said weapon you redirect/blend with it. (interesting how that sounds like I'm describing the role of tori there !! But I'm not) I think its also important to distinguish that the roles of uke and tori only exist in the dojo, they exist to simplify a learning process, the reality is of course that aikido studied *pro-actively* means that these roles, even in the dojo are interchanging between partners constantly until one of them is forced to make some form of ukemi. Under these circumstances ukemi (as in receiving a technique) requires a degree of recovery on the part of that particular student and not, to just simply give in, or in other words adding a degree of resistance. In many training environments tori creates an opening for uke to exploit, in this case lets take ai-hanmi katatedori as the example; thusly, we so often see tori simply extending one of his arms expecting uke to grab it. Correct ? Whilst this method of learning is ok for very junior/inexperienced students we do see this particularly reactive training done at yudansha level and, done with a mindset that it is the correct method by which to keep learning. I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, katatedori should be studied as follows: The person intending to make the technique actually initiates by attacks their partner (let’s assume chudan tsuki with tanto) the person on the receiving end reacts by attempting control of that weapon by controlling the corresponding hand/arm - IE ai-hanmi katatedori... Now at this point, I can raise another interesting issue; how many times do we see ai-hanmi katatedori where both students are essentially stood in front of each other ? Often right ? Not when a tanto has just been thrust at you for obvious reason. The moving off line for either party involved in this train scenario is vital however; it only becomes clearly apparent when aikido is practiced pro-actively. ...Ok, so we now have two people in contact with each other, one has just thrust a tanto at his partner and he [the partner] has countered with a controlling movement (ai-hanmi katatedori). Before (uke) can effect a further counter attack with a technique of his own (which would mean he assumes the role of tori), the person with the tanto in his hands continues with a technique of his own (thus reassuming the role of tori) as you can see, roles of uke and tori switch and interchange depending upon who's doing what and when. It isn't a static pre-determined environment (or shouldn't be for students who've had plenty of mat time) It is often understood or believed that one of the most effective ways of preventing a sword from being drawn is to have control over the right hand, this is because this hand holds the tsuka (handle) of the sword however, contrary to belief the right hand only plays a small part in the process of nukitsuki (initial drawing and cutting) thus, when we look at awase movements we employ in aikido : irimi, tenkan, tenshin And also positioning relative to our partner : omote, ura, jodan, chudan and gedan It is quite clear to anyone studying a sword art that these movements and positions are likewise employed, is it no surprise then, given aikido's close influences with the sword, that we see almost exactly the same movements and positions in aiki taiso? Not really but, they only really become apparent with specific sword knowledge, even aikiken really doesn't illustrate the different methods, directions and application of drawing a sword. LeeLess mentioned in his post about katatedori being used to control the sword whilst in the saya (scabbard) however this isn't the only time when having control over (predominately the right hand) is important when we're discussing use of the sword. Indeed if one is unfortunate enough to be faced with a drawn sword (now getting into the realms of muto no jutsu) having control over the sword at some point. Whilst I don't want to discuss the merits of muto dori here because that is an entirely different debate, it is clear that katatedori is by far a counter/controlling method rather than a specific attack (certainly from a koryu weapons perspective) likewise, and as someone who spent nearly a decade as a Prison Officer and in Crisis Intervention teams, I just can't see the merits of grabbing a wrist(s) as part of an attack; control yes but not as an attack because I can see far more useful things to do with my hands under violent circumstances than grab wrists/arms (for anything other than controlling) Regards
Again there is a whole series of techniques ignored or lost to modern aikidoka. No experienced aikidoka shall grab at the wrist to stop the drawing of a sword. If he does the swordsman need only turn his hand palm upwards to negate the power of the hold and break the attackers ribs with tsuka ate. that is using the left hand thumb on tsuba to strike with the koshira of the sword. Or wrap the tsuka over the attacking arm to execte nikkyo. There are a great number of techniques which use the sword still in the saiya to strike, pin or throw. By far the most effective way to stop a sword being drawn is to pre-empt the draw by striking down the tsuka or by striking down/ up the saiya (Study this and decide on the proper angle needed). This shall prevent the sword from being drawn and of course a technique must be applied intantly.Usually a strike with elbow and a wrapping of the neck works.I am afraid that the "urban legend" of stopping the draw by securing the hand of the swordsman is just that in answer to the much asked question "why the arm grabs?" Classic sword technique when someone grasps your right arm with both hands is simply to leave their arms there withdraw the hip and "strip" the saiya from the sword.If you then place the left hand on the sword and turn the blade toward the attaker nikkyo will apply itself. There is only one thing worse than an applied nikkyo and that is applied nikkyo with a swordblade pressing on the back of your neck. Dave I demonstrated the sword retention techniques a couple of years ago at an IKET (international kendo embu and taikai) There is a DVD out there somewhere I shall try to get one for you. Koyo Edit I have friends who are swordsmen bottom line if at all possible do no mess with them!!
Sorry mate, I'm not at all sure if you're agreeing with me on the points I make or disagreeing ? I'm not suggesting that an aikidoka would consider a wrist grab as a viable option against a swordsman, what I'm suggesting is that the use of katatedori is for control over [something] and that Joe Public may well opt for the obvious grab 'at' the very 'thing' which poses what they 'think' is the greater threat, nihonto, tanto [whatever] The other point I was hoping to have made is that the very techniques and movements you describe from a swordsman's perspective are those very same movements in taiso, and form a part of the ken influences in aikido. Rather than be used as an effective method of nukitsuki [where the primary aim is to release the sword and cut down the opponent] but, to use those movements as an effective means of awase and kuzushi. - Different objective, same methodology. Regards
Hi Dave I agree with you. What I was pointing out is that many of today's aikidoka have not been taught the sword retention techniques or are even aware of them. Yes it would be instinctive for jo public to grab as you say. My main reason for posting is the hope that I can encourage aikidoka to approach the art in a more positive and holistic manner and as you seam to do FIND OUT FOR THEMSELVES. Slowly but surely there are many aspects of aikido disappearing from the art as some people bend it to their own needs and "make it user friendly." One thing that disappoints me is the number of reactions to the post. Indeed the few posts on aikido compared to the other arts.I was thinking of starting a thread called aikido misconceptions and addressing this problem but I do not know how or if I am allowed to. Koyo Best regards buddy
Haven't seen that movie as far as I recall, but I can picture the scene in my head as if I did see the movie. I always like Kurosawa movies with Mifune.
I would tend to agree with what you say Dave but with some differences in application. I would agree that katatedori CAN be a counter, but it depends on how it is used. I agree that katatedori should be used in conjunction with something else because of its temporary nature (it cannot be held forever). I'll state my experience with what I call skill progression in a fighter where it comes to keeping one's balance: 1. At first one stumbles and tries to keep balance. 2. A more skilled person tends to grab onto the other when put off balance, putting both momentarily off balance. 3. An even more skilled person tends to counter and not lose balance, putting the other off balance instead. In my years in karate, I developed quite an affinity to the second point above. When a limb was present, whether I was attacking or countering, I would somehow find that I would entangle it. Sometimes at the wrist, sometimes it was just the clothing that I had hold of. I would pull, push and twist the other while setting them up for a takedown or counter punch or kick. Later on, however, my experience is that when grabbing on to someone, we become connected. I found that any grab onto a larger and stronger person or very skilled person left me at more of a disadvantage than it left them at. The technique became very important... Grabbing the wrist so that it also controlled the hand. Grabbing the clothing in ways that took all the slack out. Grabbing the elbow in such a way to control the shoulder too. etc... To me then a grab became an attack, a dirty trick, a way to set up what was to come next. Like other attacks, it comes when the timing is right. When to grab and when not to grab becomes instinctive, instead of the instinct to grab. In a nutshell, IMHO, a grab is whatever it is used for, whether counter or first strike.
Fairestnuff mate; horses for courses as they say. I think the differences in our thought process for this specific topic is based in part of the nature of our martial arts backgrounds and, how we ultimately approach what and how we do it (them). Having read your last post and the clarifications of what you initially presented, I have no issues with your opinions. Regards
Don't you just love one-liners... Short, consume minimal bandwidth and best of all offer no real discussion or insight… Not so much a discussion forum, but a statement fora firecoins, define the integral facets of aikido in terms of grappling if you please.
any art based on locks & holds and minimal striking. I already wast plenty of bandwidth in other threads.
