For once I agree with Sonshu!!! I have yet to meet someone who can grab the wrist of a jab thrown by a fairly decent boxer (perhaps I haven't met the right people) and as for a parry Sonshu is correct. It is such a small range of motion that I doubt an atemi would have time to be turned into a wrist grab. Biomechanically the person who parries has a greater amount of time to respond in. On the plus side, sometimes people get lucky.
I find Aikido style Atemi are easy to catch As from my experience pure Aikido students dont throw a punch that has the effect of a normal punch, the ones the train against are often very poor and left out to be grabbed. In the real world it is much harder, the locks do work and work well but you have to engage into a grapple situation to catch a decent punch because you have to draw the hand/arm out. SONSHU
In the real world it is much harder, the locks do work and work well but you have to engage into a grapple situation to catch a decent punch because you have to draw the hand/arm out. I know Aikidoka who do not, this is the argument I`m coming from. When you get to the correcct proficiency level in Aikido, you stop needing to grapple your opponents limbs from him
I have some video footage that I will send to you There is Frank Doran I think who is a 7th Dan. He is only defending against lunch punches and it looks fairly poor - I would like you guys to see it to comment on it. - Just curious what you make of it as the compliancy of the people is amazing? Also I have only just stopped training in it, my reasons for it were that I did not feel it blended well with what I do as the emphasis on taking locks from lunge punch's was the main reason. Still I have been around with Aikido people a lot (for years) and only just stopped training myself so I am not taking a wild stab in the dark with my comments, these are high level instructors I have been training with. SONSHU
Spike The main thing with Aikido is there are only really 50 or so techniques and the rest is just slight variations of so in a short space of time a martial artist can add the majority of the moves he does not allready know to his/her skillset. The biggest step for me in Aikido has always been the Aikido footwork and that is the largest thing I learnt from it as many of the locks and throws I have done during one style or another. Sankyo is another one I picked up that I needed work on applying. Message me your e-mail address and I will send the Doran stuff over to you for a browse. Thanks SONSHU
Aikido is neither a grappling or a striking art. it is an art where the practitioner believes that he does not have an opponent..all he has is an energy. an Aikidoist never wins a fight, they just become more in tune with the universe. there goal is to one day BE at one and in doing so, be aware of everything. it's quite tricky to explain, but you'll never hear an Aikidoist say that they grapple or that they strike. they only try to harmonize with the universe. jeja
Lost me a bit here Thanks Jejanim Does any of the other Aikido teachers or students agree or disagree with this? SONSHU
you'll never hear ... Aikidoists don't win fights because they don't fight. They harmonize with the energy given to them. This much is true. But aikidoists do grapple and strike as a means by which they harmonize. Ever look at the pictures of O'Sensei in the John Steven's book "Budo" ? It's O'Sensei himself showing step-by-step how to do various aikido techniques. Let's agree that O'Sensei knew aikido best, so that what he's doing in these pictures is proper aikido. What's he doing? Go look at the pictures yourself. I say he's grappling. But "grappling" doesn't equate to fighting. Aikido does not fight. This is true. Aikido blends and harmonizes. In aikido grabbing hold of someone's incoming body is nothing more than (1) a means by which to feel the other person's energy, and (2) a point of contact from which to harmoniously and harmlessly redirect and control that energy that you now feel.
Have to say the harmony with the universe is a bit Naff. As I think this is a blatent attemt at "groovy word bending". You do a martial art - nothing more, sorry guys. SONSHU
basics = throw and pin Aikido Today Magazine, #41, Aug/Sep 1995 Interview of Shigendobu Okumura Sensei, who began studying aikido in 1940 from O'Sensei. Page 8 - "Recognizing that violence would continue to exist, he [O'Sensei] developed his new martial art emphasizing methiods for controlling violence without killing. Policemen have to apprehend criminals, for exampe, but they are generally not allowed to kill them in the process. On the other hand, if policemen get killed or severely injured, they can't continue their work. For the betterment of society, it's necessary to be able to control violence without getting hurt and without inflicting harm on others. "On a technical level, this leaves us with only one choice: to pin the person face down or, if the person resists vigorously, to throw him to the ground and then pin face down. That is the basic content of our Aikido technique - to pin, or throw and pin." So this guy says that basic content of aikido is to throw and pin. Yep, that sounds right to me. And if that's not grappling, then I don't know what grappling is.
As one of the first generation aikidoka here is something that many aikidoka do not seem to realise. All of the throws in aikido are locks all of the locks are throws. Example shiho nage today is done so "smoothly" that the fact that just prior to the act of throwing the attacker is locked into position is lost. In the ara waza forms serious damage may be done so in todays approach (for some) it has been excluded. Further example irrimi nage just prior to the throw the attacker may be locked into position again in ara waza form damage to the neck and spine is a danger. Locks becoming throws in ikkyo rather then pin the attacker he can be thrust completely off balance and thrown with the technique. Nikkyo can be executed as a throw and is very dangerous. So this probably throws (no pun intended) the debate about aikido being a grappling art up into the air. (pun intended).Because aikido has been marketed as an enlightened art many of todays aikido are completely unaware of the ara waza and indeed many would see them as "un aiki".And DO NOT GET ME STARTED ON ATEMI. Koyo makotokai.co.uk
Because many aikido schools have introduced the concept of harmony to such a degree atemi has all but disappeared from aikido practice.Since most of the first generation of Western aikido came from a Judo background the thought of "following" a technique and giving up our balance was just not on and it was not asked.Many basic principles are lost when uke harmonises. Almost all aikido techniques begin by unbalancing the attacker backwards to the side. It is impossible to "lead" any martial artist off balnce so a strike to a vulnerable area THROUGH A KUZUSHI is used. For example if someone attacks with yokomen uchi or mawashi tsuke with his right hand often they shall leave the left shomen open. The aikidoka enters inside of the strike receiving it on his raised left handblade and strikes powerfully from this new body alignment. If he has enterd properly he is addressing the rear kuzushi in the attacker when he delivers the strike. The atemi is not tentative it is directed through the attacker driving him off balace backwards to the side. All aikidoka should be trained in receiving atemi so in most cases he will manage to receive the blow on a raised arm allowing the aikidoka to actually deliver quite a powerful blow. This for David Humm. David has mentioned that the cutting action used by the aikidoka in atemi or when cutting an attack aside is not identical to sword cuts. Saddly this is true but it should not be. When an atemi lands it either "pushes or pulls" as understood by swordsmen.The tentative atemi seen today are not true atemi. Atemi is delivered using sword principles such as debana waza the ability to stike while the opponent is deciding to attack or is confused, afraid or angry.If the student is trained in delivering and covering atemi there is little danger during practice. There are other techniques called ara waza which are "rigorous" techniques designed specifically for use against unsolicited violent attacks and the techniques and atemi therein are most effective. I hope this has been of some help . Best wishes Koyo Edit One other thing David Humm mentioned that he does not use the wrist holding "attacks" as techniques. This again is something that many modern aikidoka do not understand. Tai no henko is the term used for training in body movement and alignment. To this end the aikdoka would be held firmly to allow him to learn to move freely even when someone was securing his posture. The execution of a technique from these holds was not seen as practical aikido technique but an exercise. So Dave good onya you just discovered for yourself a basic principle that is in danger of being lost. Sorry for ranting on I think I have "talked" more on this single post than I do when leading (notice I did not say teaching) a class best wishes and thanks for the "valued" member Koyo makotokai.co.uk
Bill, When I mentioned that I do not consider (or teach) techniques from wrist grabs, I meant this from the perspective of 'application' or 'practicality' As I'm sure you are aware katatedori features in our art for good reason however. Many schools focus so much on this method of training. They often fail to remember that is just that... A method of training, to teach principles and core aspects of the art however; the problem is this method is considered as a primary way of studying and this essentially appears as the only way to perform aikido waza... This is why we're accused of LARPing so often. I use katatedori to teach principle based lessons and not much more than that. Quiz for today folks... answers here if you please. Why do we use katatedori in aikido ? What are the origins of katatedori ? [edit] Koyo and Philip Smith cannot take part Regards
