i think, sonshu, you are taking the atemi thing to mean something different. a strike like mr tintin the transformer dude explained is not neccessarily supposed to be landed.. but what i meant with the whole 'it can be all of these at once' thingy is this (read me knife dude):- i can apply ikkajo as a lock.. i can apply ikkajo as a throw.. i can apply ikkajo as a projection... I CAN apply ikkajo as a strike.. (oooh nasty) telling the differrence between them is easy at my level.(pretty shoddy) but if i learn ikkajo fully(never gonna happen) then all of these lose there importance to me. ikkajo is ikkajo. this is why aiki is dynamic. you start out by learning enough to apply techniques in different ways and relavent to the attack or situation. you develop these skills to the point where none of this talk and dilly dallying about grappling and striking matters. you simply apply technique. uke (or the aggressor) can grapple all they want. ****e (tori, or the aikidoka) simply applies. i wasn't lying by even two inches. i was simply quoting a man who was considered to be one of the hardest guys in the world during the last century.. why would he wish to try and be something he is not. the reason i introduced that quote was to provoke thought on the application of technique.. not to wave a fake cyber falas about how hard i wish aikidoka are. i think tintin the reason both shioda and tomiki may have been quoted sayin these things is perhaps they heard it in the same place... there is after all only one aikido
Sonshu: "No sorry guys its only Aikido people who want to give it somthing special " isn`t it possible that Aikidoka are best qualified to class their own style? "The problem with Aikido I found while studying is that all the people were really bad the 2 dojo's I have trained - they really could not strike or kick for toffee." there is no kicking in Aikido so far as I`m aware, it`s completely at odds with the principles of Aikido, which is why their kicks will be poor. the art specialises in a completely different area "1) I only punch with the intention of it doing somthing" That`s one way of looking at it, an atemi (heel of the hand strike or backfist maybe or crane`s wing or whatever), in my opinion should stop in the centre point of your opponents body (whichever part you`re trying to hit. If they get out of the way they`ll be off balance and thus "distracted" enough for you to apply a technique. If they don`t move then they`ve just been twatted very hard. If you were a nasty person, like say Freeform, or Danny from our club, you will probably have broken their jaw and rattled their temples, broken their nose or whatever. all of these are very distracting and then allow you to apply a technique.
Spike I have spent time training in Aikido so had a pretty good look at it - it is an informed decision. Also Aikido people find it harder to cross into styles like MT and KUNG FU, but take to Judo and Jujitsu like a duck to water! Well I know there is no kicking in Aikido, some people did a few though and they were not at a great standard. SPIKE - also people can avoid a punch without being off balance. Somthing to be aware of, also the atemi in Aikido are never really designed to take someone out, they are more an opener into - locks and throws - grappling techniques. SONSHU
Med A strike is supposed to land - a distraction - to everyone I know is a distraction. Coming back to the ikkajo technique you do not know the technique unless you know all of these catagories you mentioned that is obvious to all arts. Coming back to the quote, all Aikido I have trained in, seen and watched is a grappling art aimed less at sport and more at self defence.....But grappling to most martial arts people is not the strength vs strength stuff that you guys class it as. It is when two people are enguaged (touching) doing techniques but not STRIKING. This is where I am coming from, even 70% is from what I have seen a gross falsehood. The fact that no school I have seen has trained in any striking apart from slight palm strike stuff and shuto techniques. SONSHU
Freeform - Original style Tai Jitsu, cross trains in, Aikido, [Judo, Karate, Muay Thai, BJJ and soon to take up Wing Chun Spike - Original style TKD, main style Lan Kuen Kung Fu (sp?), cross trains in Aikido. FluffyDoc - Original style Wing Chun, cross trains in Aikido. Our mate Dan - Original style Aikido, cross trained in Judo and Kung Fu I could go on..... Col
Don't see you point FREEFORM Taijitsu is very simerler to Aikido so thats no suprise you cross trained into it. SPIKE Lan Kuen Kung Fu- this is WCKF I think??? good to cross train for the throwing and locking aspect - bet he is not gonna rely on the striking of Aikido as its not as effective as his WCKF FLUFFYDOC Same as above -will use Aikido when locking and throwing but not for the strikes I doubt, a few perhaps when opening up for a throw or lock. DAN Aikido - Judo - see easy My original main style training was Taijitsu and thats why I had such a good base to move into Aikido, Judo, Sombo, Jujitsu. After trying to get into it a few times I have found the style is not for me, I did get some decent things out of it though. BUT many of the moves in Jujitsu, Taijitsu and Judo are the same move just slightly adapted for Aikido but in essence it is the same thing. Surely you agree on this. SONSHU
Yes I do agree, but you missed MY point. I don't have any problem cross train in Aikido, MY and WC. Spike, Dan and Fluffy don't have a problem X-training in Aikido and Kung Fu. Col
Never said they did Its harder for strikers as all the strength element of what they do is taken to a softer level by Aikido. THE BIG POINT IS - Locking and throwing students take to the art far easier as the footwork and balance work required for the moves is there in one form or another. This is the key thing and what I was talking about - If you took to people of simerler ability and skill the Judo guy will find it easier to cross than a TKD person in almost every case - do you agree? SONSHU
I don't follow you here, in striking arts you should be relaxed for better speed/power, wheres the strength element. This seems more indictive of wrestling or Judo. Thats because we're great! You mean cross train? It is a subjective statement, but I'd agree in the most part. Colin
Also Aikido people find it harder to cross into styles like MT and KUNG FU I`ll have to disagree with you their, the principals, for Kung Fu at least are exactly the same, the technique and approah may be slightly different they blend together very well Lan Kuen Kung Fu- this is WCKF I think??? good to cross train for the throwing and locking aspect - bet he is not gonna rely on the striking of Aikido as its not as effective as his WCKF Basically it`s Lau Gar, the trick is you strike the way you would in Kung Fu and depending on the reaction you can then use an Aikido technique. It helps cover gaps or just give you a bit more of an arsenal SPIKE - also people can avoid a punch without being off balance. Somthing to be aware of, could you give me an example, excepting moving your whole body out of the way also the atemi in Aikido are never really designed to take someone out, they are more an opener into - locks and throws - grappling techniques. I don`t think anyone said they`d take someone out, we said they were openers in fact, you`re agreeing with us
Freeform You can be relaxed and still use strength - it is important to use what strength you have - boxers do, Thai fighters do - there about the best at it! Judo is not as strength orientated as you think and even wrestling has a good level of techniques with it - it is silly not to use your strength Glad you could see where I was coming from. SONSHU
SPIKE Examples you asked for are - a simple parry the kung fu type slaping the shot out of the way, also how a boxer just moves his head out of the way, its a small movement and no where near enough to put you off balance. I am agreeing with you as you do not kick, your strikes are openers into locking and throwing techniques - glad you agree with me - THIS MAKES YOU A GRAPPLING ART, I do however feel there should be more emphasis and time spend on striking as this would enchance any Aikido student ability. SONSHU
more time on strikes Based upon my own dojo experiences I agree that we aikido students could use more practice in striking for the purpose of feeding better attacks to our fellow training partners. But, practicing striking so as to be able to hurt someone with the strike goes against the fundamental purpose of aikido, which is to successfully neutralize an attack without hurting the attacker. Punching to injure makes aikido into jujitsu or kempo or something of that sort. (There's nothing wrong with jujitsu and kempo. I'm rather fond of jujitsu myself.)
Examples you asked for are - a simple parry the kung fu type slaping the shot out of the way, also how a boxer just moves his head out of the way, its a small movement and no where near enough to put you off balance. Well, the problem I have with any sort of parry is, you`re basically giving an aikidoka you`re wrist to play with Moving you`re head out of the way enough to avoid a strike will mean you`re balance cn then be taken easily, it`s very easily to move someone`s body by using their head. I am agreeing with you as you do not kick, your strikes are openers into locking and throwing techniques - glad you agree with me - THIS MAKES YOU A GRAPPLING ART, I do however feel there should be more emphasis and time spend on striking as this would enchance any Aikido student ability. I think you`re making too much of a leap there, just because you`re using a strike to open someone for a different technique doesn`t make Aikido Grappling. If I may ask, what is the extent of your Aikido training? What sort of time have you spent studying it? What styleof Aikido was/is it?
uhgh im sorry dude.. but i dont know how to make myself clearer and you still missed my point. but i wont repeat myself. check out http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm its good.. made even me think and im the most stubborn ******* i know. still this forums certainly got going and thats cool
i had a thought.. all arts take balance some way or an other. some strike some grapple... when training, somewhere between striking and kozuchi(?) (balance breaking) there is a point where they meet. a very fine line where it would be correct to call the movement striking or simply irimi(or tenkan)(god im so ****ing zen today). this is the point i believe shioda was talking about. now i think i must tenkan all the way to shop and buy food.. bye
Sorry guys busy weekend The sort I do are so quick the I doubt people could grab my wrist, as I know I can not grab my students wrists with them, they are designed to be as fast as the attack it meets. Can you catch a jab, i doubt it the parry is quicker than the jab as it has a smaller range of movment. Blocks are stronger and easier to catch but a parry is more luck than judgement if you get it. SONSHU
SPIKE As requested As for my Aikido training I have been cross training for years with Aikido Dan grades, spent a long while some years ago training with a school in the East of England in Satomi Kai I think it was called. I have to say I thought there was an abundance of over compliant people in this school Also training for some months solid with a 5th dan in the Iwama style near Heathrow and his assistant instructor who is 4th dan, good things gained from it but I still feet very much that it was a grappling style. Never joined for grading purposes but to look more at the style and take what I was missing from it. I feel I have done this now and hence stopped training there about 2 months ago so it is recent knowledge I am speaking from. SONSHU
