Is Aiki ken based on "Dual" sword principles?

Open my mind to what, I have attended seminars over years with instructors from various Aikido styles and enjoyed what they have done. I hold dan ranks in Aikido, Taiho-jutsu and judo. My teacher who I studied with on a weekly basis, for over 25 years holds the rank of 8th Dan Aikido, 7th Dan Iaido and 7th Dan Jodo. Iaido & Jodo was included in our practice, but as with the duel sword is not a part of the curriculum for grading.

I fully understand that there are many ways to climb the Aikido mountain and respect anyone who makes that journey.

If I am ever in Chicago I will visit the MAC dojo . Although If I was spending that sort of money I would go to Japan or Australia the place of my Shihan's retirement.

So there you have it,some of my history. Feel free with yours.

Open mined Shaun Hoddy

 

My Aikido history is pretty much humble pie. 1980-1986 I trained with Matt Holland and sometimes George Girvan in Scotland, taking in various seminars, summer and easter schools with well various folk including Terry Ezra, Kanetsuka and Chiba Shihans, Seigo Yamaguchi, Fujita, Asai, Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Christian Tissier and others.

Unfortunately shoulder and hip injuries put paid to my original Aikido epoch. For one reason or another I dropped down the grading order (I think I acheived 3rd kyu but can't really be sure of this now) and as a consequence I am not really interested in grades as such.

Over time ( about 22 years) these injuries largely sorted themselves out and I started TaiChiChuan and not long after FMA - all with different folk - because this time I was a contractor - always moving for work.

Almost everywhere I went, folk looked on me as some mad Aikidoka geezer. However, I didnt fool myself, I knew that I didn't really understand Aikido, or TaiChiChuan or FMA - I just ploughed my way through things somewhat inexpertly but with a spoonfull of spirit here and there.

This got me to thinking, well I had better see if I do know anything about Aikido - or not - and work on it somewhat. Round about 3 years ago, I started visiting some Aikido dojos, and in 2009 found Dento's Iwama dojo in Edinburgh, where I really found out that I had not really been exposed to Aikiken or Aikijo significantly and a 2nd epoch of Aikido was almost respawned. I did manage to get to some Iwama Aikido and less memorably Aikibudo in France last year, but this year it has just not been possible.

Why is Aikido still interesting to me? - essentially it is still my reference art and TaiChiChuan and FMA are not anything like as codified - but both have equivalent core aspects of using armed weaponary to develop body movement, timing, rythym, distance, centre-line protection and exposure (in the opponent), entries, opponent unbalancing and unarmed application.

Now I have to cross-train, simply due to my travels. Again this is where koyo was absolutely great - he really understood cross-training.

 

@shinkei
Open your mind to what? The possibility that somewhere on this planet there are those that incorporate dual sword principle when they teach. You poured over your aikido reference library and could not find this? So you still have not added any of this to your collection? Is that because your teachers did not teach it to you, and it is not tested? Does that mean it cannot possibly exist in the realm of aikido then?

If you were to mention a book or article that I was not familiar with, or had not seen before, whether it was taught to me or not, I would consider reviewing it with an open mind, and add it to my collection.

If I heard some shihan was instructing relatively close to me, even though I had not met that person or trained that style, I would go with an open mind.

If someone here on map mentions something about aikido that I was not aware of before (such as Yokota shihan teaching at MAC) I would remain open to that, and of he did show on rare occasion dual sword, or give explination regarding such, then I would remain open.

Does this mean I'm an expert with dual sword? HA!

I've trained in aikido.

I have six months to go until I mark 20 years training. I have never been to Europe, as I tend to favor the Pacific and South Pacific side of the world. In 1992 I was a whitebelt learning aikido for the first time.

If any of you have been to Hombu in Japan, you might recognize the photo I use for my avatar.

 

If you recall, I posted a youtube link of Hideo Ohba using two swords to demonstrate Gyaku aigamae ate. An Aikido technique if my 36 years of practice is correct. At the end of the day I am happy with the Aikido I practice. I have been lucky to attend a seminar by one of the founder of the system that I practice, this being Hideo Ohba.

As stated in my last post my teacher Dr Lee Ah Loi 8th Dan Aikido JAA Shihan, 7th Dan Iaido ZNKR 7th Dan Jodo ZNKR, 1st Dan Kendo BKA showed the principles of these other budo systems in our aikido practice. Many of the members of the Jugokan Dojo held grades in all the disciplines taught. I can assure you that I have a very open mind.

I often invite instructors from other dojo to teach. The last Traditional Aikidoka to teach at my Dojo was Paul Wiffen from the Singapore Aikikai.
Members of my association Zen Eikoku Tomiki Aikido Renmei http://zetar-aikido.co.uk often host Neil Saunders Yoshinkan Aikido. In autumn 2011 our memebrs are playing host to Robert Mustard 7th Dan Yoshinkan. I would say fairly open minded, and that's not including my Judo and Taiho-jutsu.

 

The one on this thread? Yep. I liked it. Reminded me of a munetsuki sayu nage.

 

Oh god, well at least we now know that he does not practice MARTIAL Aikido but Ki Aikido

 

Thanks for that Dentoiwamaryu, I would not of known that munetsuki saya nage was a Ki Aikido technique. One its not a style that I have had any exposure too and two within the Tomiki System we use different names for techniques Ikkyo (Oshi Taoshi) Nikkyo (Kote Mawashi) Sankyo (tenkai kote hineri) Yonkyo (Tekubi Osae).

Not sure if the Ki aikido practiced in the UK today is what Tohei really wanted as an Aikido system, but then Aikido has become a very broad church. Although not for me the various styles fit around different personalities. I have an open enough mind to understand that people want different things from their Aikido practice.

 

There's Aikido. There's Ki Aikido. Then there's Ki Aikido.

 

@dento
Interesting that you would describe the munetsuki sayu nage that Ohba sensei demonstrates with dual sword, and then empty hand as not being martial aikido...what is your basis for this claim? Is it not a kokyu nage?

 

Maybe your right, I hope Im wrong as its hard to accept that the KI Aikido Ive been exposed to has anything to do with Tohei's legacy. I did here back in 2002 when I was in OZ , where I was swamped by KI clubs and it was all horrible to watch and feel, that Tohei had expressed great sorrow at how his Shin shin schools had grew into. Id love to see how Ki Aikido works with someone who attacks to attack not to fall down as well as how someone would throw me with out breaking my balance instead of expecting me to give it.

 

No matter what we call our Aikido the key is kuzushi. When I competed it would of been fantastic if my opponent just fell over. I know that Tomiki Aikido like Judo is Kata based with both Tori & Uke working together when demonstrating. When practicing kata uke should feel Tori applying kuzushi without this it becomes a dance.

When performing Hikitategeiko / Shia there is no co-operation between Tori & Uke, but obviously there are rules that exclude techniques that smash joint.

 

And with dual sword technique or demonstration, uke may not feel anything at all. The kuzushi is taken in the opening, and high degrees of awareness on both sides are needed to execute such movements.

If one goes back and watches the ki aikido demonstration (thanks for pointing that out dento) by Ohba sensei with two bokken, the speed at which he demonstrates allows us to see this being demonstrated in this munetsuki sayu nage.

 

I know what you mean. Some of my grading videos are on YouTube. Some if not most of the uke are clearly just falling over when they think they're supposed to. Worryingly quite a lot of people have commented on "how good" my technique was. When techniques have genuinely worked for me, so far as I can figure they're operating on the same principles any other style of Aikido is based around and atemi is generally part of the solution.

While Tohei claimed to have changed many of the techniques in Ki Aikido. So far as I can see these changes are fairly superficial. The key difference is the approach of sorting the mind out first. So far as I know Tohei never banned or condemned a hard practice session. He never banned weapons practice either.

Other than the fact that Ki Aikido attracts way more than it's fare share of nuttbars who want to be martial arts budo zen masters but are grossly over weight and can hardly stand never mind practice hard even if their lives depended on it. I can't explain why Ki Aikido has become what it is.

 

Hideo Ohba Biography (Not Ki Aikido)

27th April 1910
He was born in the village of Nakagawa in Akita prefecture, the fifth child of Teiichi and Taka Tozawa. He was the second son among eleven siblings. His father was a self taught ore refining engineer so the family moved first to a copper mine in Okayama prefecture and then the Omodani mine in Fukui prefecture. Teiichi then went to Korea alone leaving his family in the city of Akita. Upon his return they moved to Okazaki.


1925
Hideo entered the new Kakunodate Prefectural Junior High School on the 8th April as a first year student. He belonged to the judo club for five years and was made captain in his 5th year.

1930
He was blessed with physical strength and power so at this time he was unrivalled in judo within the prefecture. After graduation he took charge of judo in the junior high school.

1931
He was awarded his 2nd dan in Kodokan Judo and met Kenji Tomiki who came to the junior high school as a teacher. From September after enlisting in the 17th Akita Infantry Regiment he served in China where he was decorated for repeatedly crossing 'dead lines'.

1933
After demobilisation he returned to his junior high school as an assistant instructor in judo under Kenji Tomiki. He obtained his 5th dan in Kodokan Judo in October.

1936
In September he married Keiko Oba who was famous as a young teacher of the Japanese harp. He adopted his wife's family name.

1940
He obtained his licence for teaching judo at junior high schools. The following April he became a judo teacher at Kenkoku University in Manchukuo. At Tomiki's request Hideo held an additional post as a judo teacher in Shinkyo, the capital city of Manchukuo.

1942
He received his 5th dan in aikibudo from Morihei Ueshiba after which he began instructing aikibudo to the police in Shinkyo. Morihei Ueshiba used him during a budo festival on the 10th anniversary of the foundation of Manchukuo.

1943
He obtained his 6th Dan in aikido. While instructing aikido and judo he was learning kendo, naginata and iai.

1945
He returned to Japan after a period of forced labour at an aeroplane repair shop near the border of the Soviet Union. Tomiki remained in detention and, during this time, Hideo looked after Tomiki's wife. After repatriation he narrowly escaped death from typhus.

1950
After a year of recuperation with support from his wife he became a judo instructor for the Yokote police. He obtained his 6th dan in Kodokan Judo.

1954
He obtained a position at the Akita Prefecture Police Headquarters and became a judo instructor at the Akita Prefecture Police Academy. The golden age of the police judo club was during his tenure.

1959
He retired from his positions with the police because Tomiki invited him to Tokyo. He cherished a desire to help realise Tomiki's ideal that had been interrupted in Manchukuo.

1960
He became a lecturer in the Physical Education Department of Waseda University and at the same time became the Aikido Club instructor.

1977
He left Waseda University and became a lecturer at Kokushikan University. He made great efforts to instruct at many clubs for students and the general public as well as overseas in the UK and Australia.

1978
He was awarded 9th Dan from the Japan Aikido Association by Tomiki.

1979
He became the 2nd President of the Japan Aikido Association and the Director of Shodokan upon the death of Tomiki.

1982
He fell ill but perservered and after leaving the hospital resumed instructing.

1985
He retired from lecturing at Kokushikan University. Tetsuro Nariyama took over his position.

1986
He died in February at the age of 75.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dt32EV92RY&NR=1"]YouTube - ‪Sode dori gyaku gamae ate‬‏[/ame]

This clip was taken at Dr Lee Ah Loi's Jugokan Dojo

 

Thanks, Shinkei...I'm sure that will clear up a little confusion on dentos part in associating that particular technique with any particular style of aikido.

On a different note, it seems quite an issue that many of you in the UK have been exposed to bad aikido, been surrounded by, spent time training with these unfortunate dojo.

Perhaps that is the result of MA in general being regulated by municipalities and governing boards.

You don't encounter that here in the USA. I think mainly due to the history and progression of the MA from the late 60's into the 70's mostly...perhaps a bit in the early 80s. Mostly prior to the MA as an after school baby sitting program.

A school opened and stayed open with its students due to its reputation for quality instruction. Aikido was not very popular back then, but a host of other competitive MA (self defense wasn't quite the buzz word it is today), and this was the crowd that found their way into aikido, for the most part.

There was already an expected level of quality martial arts to be brought into a community, lest a dojo find its way out of business rather quickly.

In the area I live, there are at least six aikido dojo within a twenty mile radius, and a few more (close to 8 or 10) in a 30 mile radius. There is a choice of where to progress in aikido. All of these dojo have been in operation for many years, the oldest being around 30 years is an iwama style.

Too bad that so many of you have encountered dojo and training that should have never been in operation compared to other quality MA in the same geographic region/city/suburb.

 

How unfortunate we must be to have people like Kenshiro Abbe 1955, Chiba mid 60s, Senta Yamada 1959, Takeshi Inoue mid 60s, Tetsuo Ehara 1966, Naito 1966, Itsuro Haba 1978, Kaneska resident, Mr Yu 1970's, Dr Lee ah Loi. 1961-2003 until retirement in Australia and numerous other Aikikai, JAA & Yoshinkan Aikidoka teaching us in the UK. There are many UK shihan issued from honbu of the various styles of Aikido. Next too Japan the UK is one of the most successful nations in both Embu and Shai events. The BAA is hosting the International Aikido Festival in London this year.

I think all nations have good Aikido and bad Aikido. Yes many of us do belong to governing bodies for insurance reasons. The BAB in my case does not set any standards regarding the curriculum. Many people who contribute to this forum hold grades that are awarded by Honbu or recognised by honbu or international associations Aikikai, JAA, Yoshinkan. The BAB and other bodies provide coach education qualifications, CRB checks and insurance. In the UK it is very hard to teach without insurance in sports halls.

As I have said before on this forum many of us unfortunate UK Aikidoka can be found on the internet. Please feel free to post clip of yourself practicing Aikido for us unfortunates to learn from you.

My own dojo was founded in 1975 with both myself and Greg Barton being founder members, all these years later both Greg and myself are still teaching with a healthy membership.

I count myself very lucky to have Dr Lee Ah Loi 8th Dan Japan Aikido Association, 7th Dan Iaido Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, 7th Dan Jodo Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei. 1st Dan kendo BKA as my principle teacher. Her dojo was the London hub for Japanese teacher of these budo.

 

Shinkei, with all of those that you mention, how is then that so many of you have wandered or trained in and spent time training in substandard dojo? Or is aikiwolfie the only one who has practiced in such a dojo?

In anycase, I base this on the MAP members own posts in which obviously they have, unfortunately, encountered such establishments, spent time training there, and so on.

There seems to be a common thread amongst those of you in the UK to have, if not by pure chance, wandered into these facilities only to be disappointed later in aikido training.

If one were to make a list, obviously on the good side are the shihan you mention. Is there a list of those you recomend for practitioners to stay away from?

Not just to Shinkei, but any of you in the UK who have had these misfortunate experiences? Any of those you refer to as bunnies may be included as well, or dance aikido, as there seems to be more dojo fitting this category in the UK (if only by the constant experience and references made by those posting of such conditions), than there are here in the USA.

 

Good old USA :love:

Where I live we have Ki Society headquarters for USA:

http://ki-aikido.net/

I remember advertisements from these guys twenty years ago, knocking people down with Chi/energy balls.

 

Read your entire post again and look at how damned condescending you sound.

Now, where did the term McDojo originate again? Oh dear, the USA.

And then look at how many flaky aikidoka there have been in the United States.

Empty vessels always sound the loudest.