Internal Arts...

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by TkdWarrior, Oct 12, 2002.

  1. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    No threads in this section??...well...anyways... no probs
    ok well whenever we talk about Internal Arts
    we only think of Taichi, Xing-Yi or Bagua
    sometimes we go count Wing Chun too
    but wat about other guess is every art is quite internal when it comes to higher level... i see my TKD teacher Doing his forms he looks like doing Taichi kata, the flow, the relaxmovements everything like tai-chi..
    i hav seen some karate guys doing with that kind of flow...
    so wat does internal means to be exact...??
    if u r talkin about chikung or neigung blah blah in art...then i guess as u start developin ur skills in MA those expects(which comes from chikung/neigung traing)comes into u...
    if u take phylosophy wise then yup i hav seen every art give me things to ponder about...
    if u take from medics point of view...well mostly all arts gives u..
    if u see Gen Choi who died at the age of 87 never learnt any Internal art n he was very fit even at that age...
    so wat is left in so called Internal Martial arts.... Mystics n Mystical Master who can blast energy balls???or i m just watching too much dragon ball Z.... :D
    my question is again wat is Internal Art to be exact?

    No offence intended towards any arts...just some of my View...
    even myself practice TKD n Tai-chi for that matter...
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    An internal art is anything that declares itself to be so with the consent of the majority. There's not really any other good way to tell.
  3. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    well ckdstudent i didn't get ur point...mind eloborating a bit...
    thnx for replying...

  4. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    To understand Internal/external you must believe in chi!. External power uses chi locally in the hands, feet etc. by using muscular jin (power) directed by the mind. Look at tiger style kung fu as an external art. Internal power tends to come from the dian tian (the source of chi just below your navel) this power has its root in your feet and passes through your whole body. Internal power generally comes through the tendons and relies less on muscular power. Look at white crane kung fu for a more internal style.
  5. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Do you believe in Chi?
  6. johndoch

    johndoch upurs


    I do because when I was doing Tai chi (from a book and video) I achieved results such flipping up onto my feet from lying flat on my back (external power). I could never do this until I applied what I had learned from tai chi. Ultimately I think chi is your energy and the art that is tai chi is to control that energy through your mind, body spirit etc.

    I would like to go to classes where I could learn more but really dont know where any are.
  7. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    pgm316 :
    yup in india we call chi as "prana" so it's very much known...
    so believin in CHI will make my style as Internal?

    "External power use chi locally in hands by using muscluar jinn"

    hmmm that's conflicting...i don't agree much here...
    first i hav learnt punch from mucles where ur triceps n forearms plays the most later on adding shoulder... then later on i learnt to add whole body behind it... i gues which can be described as "fa jin-Explosive energy" which is basically generated at very short or no distance?...

    " Internal power tends to come from the dian tian"

    ummm tends to come from?? can u generate from elsewhere too?

  8. johndoch

    johndoch upurs


    Iam not explaining myself well and I dont claim to be an expert thats whats so good about these forums as we can all learn.
    I believe that chi is collected in the dian tian through breathing / tai chi exercises and is then redistibuted around your body as instructed by the mind. Therefore it is possible to to generate chi anywhere in your body.

    I agree that when punching u use your whole body but an external punch comes mainly from the muscles an internal punch comes mainly from the tendons. Think of when bruce lee said a karate punch is like an iron bar (external) and a Kung fu punch is like a ball on a chain (internal).
  9. touchstone_snap

    touchstone_snap New Member

    The similarities between internal and external arts... power & speed

    The differences... the development of above...

    When a tae kwon do pratictioner performs his forms slowly he is practicing "his" forms slowly not tai chi...

    Watching an internal praticioner building his ability to transmit power and speed u will see visible differences to tae kwon do or karate...

    I'm not saying that one is better than the other cause my mates can hit way harder than I can...

    Internal stylist's practice the use of a single technique for a wide range of fighting scenarios... to the extent that they will use the principle of there chosen art to fight rather than any predetermined technique...

    Internal arts stress the use of your mind as the number one weapon of choice... especially as not everyone can b 250lbs of brawn muscle...

    Although philosophy sounds wimpy it has shown great generals such as alexander the great... sun tzu... and napolean how to apply principles of warfare to good affect...

    In the internal arts these principles come as a matter of course...

    Good training...:)
  10. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    ok my 4 months of Tai chi training gave me some answers...
    whcih may be rite or wrong i m not sure...but at least i m trying things...
    frankly speakin when it comes to CHI things i try to be skeptic...
    wat i found out in Internal arts is great Body dynamics, or body mechanics which can be proved by physics(i hav relatively very less knowledge)
    when u shift from one stance to another stance u r relatively very slow if ur body is not rite u'll not be balanced, u might sway(rite,lft forward or backward) but while in external styles we do it with quite speed which eliminates complete balance(tho we still in balance) to expeirence this i'd like to ask u to do
    turning back hook kick...normally ppl can do it fast but doing slowly makes them totally offbalance but in my teacherrs case he can do kick without any probs in slow motion(reason: due lots of training around 20 yrs in TKD)
    n i hav improved with my balance in TKD with the help of Tai chi body mechanics...
    just my thoughts
  11. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    I think Internal and External are bad labels and often as misleading as the sterotyped internal MA.
    I find a greater relience on principles (of body movement/power generation/strategies)however this gives many schools an excuse not to train intensively.To fluidly move from one action to the next reguardless of phsycial or mental distraction.The training of Timing and distancing are still of high importance as they should be.Thinking that Taichi practioners only do slow movements or that they only practise the form is a perfect example of the misconceptions about such arts.
  12. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    no cat i didn't meant that tai chi does slow movements but i meant that slow movements adds to the proper body mechanics...
    i do tai ji at varyin speeds... n learning to use it as a MA not only from health aspects...
  13. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    Internal arts as I understand them...

    Internal Martial artists believe that there is energy flowing everywhere. Through your body, between heaven and earth etc.

    What internal martial artists do is use this energy. In a very, very basic sense I think that answers the original question.

    If I went into anymore detail my lack of knowledge would probably become misleading, so I will leave it there.

    I would recommend you read a book about internal arts if you want to know more. For more detailed description about what internal arts are and how they use Chi, Jing etc I could suggest this book to you as an introduction (although there isn't really anything that I've read so far which will show you exactly how to apply it, but a good reference point if you are learning or planning to learn any of the arts which are detailed).

    The Power of Internal Martial Arts: Combat Secrets of Ba Gua, Tai Chi, and Hsing-I - Bruce Kumar Frantzis

    also by the same author which I haven't read yet, only just bought and adding to my pile!

    Opening the Energy Gates of the Body: Chi Gung for Lifelong Vitality - Bruce Kumar Frantzis

    This book apparently does go into detail about Chi Gung exercises which are excellent!

  14. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    well dude i m the one who seconds the bruce's books...he is good writer...
    next comes is Yang Jwing Ming u should try him...
    i hav some fav authors...n i m looking some more whom books i can buy :)
  15. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Not wishing to express an opinion either way on the existence of chi.....but actually I do know there are practitioners of internal arts who do not believe in chi as a mysterious form of energy. In fact, my favourite Tai Chi teacher is one such person.

    So its not the belief in chi that is the defining factor. Maybe a better definition of an internal art is one which relies almost 100% on relaxation and correct body alignment with minimal muscular tension and no muscular focus.

    Or you could just list them:
    Tai Ji
    Ba Gua
    Hsing I

    I'm not aware of others off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone will correct me.:)

  16. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    hello Mike if u hav looked my above posts u hav seem me as a skeptic of Chi(the way its defined) as i hav understood the art...
    it's a great option to train in Internal Arts...
    basically there r three main stream IMA from China
    Taiji, bagua, hsing-i
    others are
    Bajiquan,Yi-quan,Pikuaquan n some names i m forgetting...
    Aikido is Partially IMA cuz they r basically softness(as most of aiki guys says, correct me otherwise) wat i hav seen they basically use ur power, but IMA does both(giving n using)
  17. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    Whether or not you believe that Chi energy exists (I personally do) I think it's a great visualisation tool for your training.

    I've used this in training and it certainly helps (the visualisation I mean) but visualisation is also and incredibly strong tool on it's own so you will have your own opinions on this.

    There are many forms of martial arts which use internal approaches along with the external. Some forms of Karate, Aikido as you say has and internal element. I'm sure there are many, many more which I know nothing about.

    If you are an interested sceptic and you want to find out for yourself whether this type of energy does exist (there are different types with many different names). I would strongly suggest you learn some standing Qi Gong (Chi Kung) exersizes. You may need to practice for a while. When you've learnt some try doing 1/2 hour or so before your martial arts training.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2002
  18. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    <I would strongly suggest you learn some standing Qi Gong (Chi
    Kung) exersizes. You may need to practice for a while>
    i m doing Zhan ZHuang from last one year :D
    i m skeptic the way it's defined... :)
  19. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    I am interested to know what your definition of Chi is?
  20. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I find it hard to believe about chi the way its explained. It does seem to go against all known laws of physics & biology. However, one way or another theirs a lot in it. If only for the stress release, but there’s more to it than that. Maybe it learning correct muscle co-ordination or the breathing exercises I don’t know. However acupuncture follows similar types of non-explainable theories and that’s even been accepted by modern medicine.

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