So far I agree. All the evidence in the Sunda region points to Cimande being the "mother style". The motions, when compared to other styles, tend to be more forceful & less refined. Just my white-boy opinion, but I've been around kampong Cibodas a few times...! Again, agreed. This is common in most inner-culture martial arts, as wellas the UFC fighting fad. (By "Inner-Culture" I am referencing arts from the same country/region that are bound by the same cultural strictures, i.e. Japanese martial arts, for the most part, share a common appearance trait between them, no matter what they are. Indonesian Silat shares this trait, as do other arts). (snipped) Actually Steve, after going over your entire post for a few hours, I tend to agree with the whole lot...to a point. Your points are valid enough, but I don't believe they cover the entire spectrum. So many arts comparing themselves to the mother art? None of these guys simply discovered a method within the original art that had the potential to evolve into it's own truth? No, I can't see that as possible, especially with Indonesians as a whole being one of the most "fluid" cultures I've ever experienced. Indonesians take whatever comes thier way (Dutch, Chinese, Islam) and bend it to thier will, not vice versa. And the Sunda ever so much more so. I think it's simply popular culture that we're dealing with here, that every art was made as a response to Cimande. Kind of like in America, the popular culture of religion here points to a "White Jesus" even though intellectually we know this isn't possible. But try to tell a Southern Baptist Minister that!! Syahbandar, for example. I have heard several variations on a theme about this one, and they all reflect a central story: A guy from Sumatra who knew Harimau met somebody that knew more than his Harimau covered & defeated him. This led him to learn the other style (nobody really knows what the "other style" was...although I have heard it was from central Java) and created his own system out of that. I have also heard the story about Syahbandar being a "dock worker's" style, which could also be the case, but most people agree that Syahbandar was a PERSON, not a kampong or a dock. Pa Herman once said that another story about this guy was that Pa Sera, Pa Syahbandar & Pa Kari all knew each other. That would be interesting!! Getting back to Cimande for a sec, I do see how popular it is all over Indonesia. Even people who don't know it know ABOUT it. Taxi drivers, aiport attendants, customs officials, waiters, everyone who I have mentioned "Silat" to immediately says "Oh, you do CIMANDE?". No one ever assumes I know Harimau, or Kari, always Cimande. Also, that I cannot be cut. Which is the one thing that I DON'T believe in. From Bradlee: Bradlee, Kamu Orang Sunda? That story isn't very well known, and I am surprised to hear you speak of it. I assumed you were from Jakarta. Okay, that settles it kawan sayah, you are a Lembang boy! Or someplace REAL CLOSE! Nah, just "Bobbe". I would rather be "Teman", because "Kang" sounds a little too muluk for me! Ya...Pa Herman made us learn Cimande as the basis for Mande Muda, because his mother is from Cimande. *SIGH*...Yes, to a point, this is true. In America, the Southeast Asian martial arts are gaining momentum faster than almost any other art. And there is a real lack of authentic training here, so we deasperately grab anything that comes our way. Because of this, there are some people who try to exploit it, but in our defense let me say two things: 1: It is almost impossible to really make a living teaching this stuff, no matter how good you are. Every art that comes to America undergoes at least three cataclysmic changes that alter it dramatically from the country it came from: 1: Politics (Who is better than who, who is running the show) 2: Training the Art (teachers who "hold back" information, for whatever reason) 3: Money/what it costs to teach someone (People who open storefront schools Vs. people who teach out of a garage) 2: The culture of Indonesia is way different from the culture here in America. There is no "kampong keluarga" there is only the neighborhood watch. Village/jungle life & socio-eco systems are different, and everything over here costs money. I can't just teach Pencak Silat in the park for free. And the teacher-student relationship is different as well, I have to charge SOMETHING, or else even my best students will take it for granted. But I don't do it for a living, and I charge about half what others charge. Somebady just yesterday said I was "low rent" for what I teach!! Pak T, aren't you getting MARRIED soon? HIDE THAT DAMN UNDERWEAR NOW!!!
Compensation Well, I don't think I could begin to cover the entire spectrum, I don't have the background in the other arts in questions. We believe that Silat Sera has a connection to Tjimande -- exactly what that might be, is, of course, iffy to pin down at this late date; however, it is reasonable to assume that martial arts bums who traveled around and studied a number a styles, such as the founders of Sera were reported to have done, would have, in that particular part of the world, likely have bumped into Tjimande players. If every third guy running around was from that style, it would certainly not strain the imagination to expect that an eclectic student would have be aware of the most prevalent art in the region. As I understand it, every broad-spectrum martial art of note swipes anything useful it comes across and blends it in, at least in the initial stages before it becomes a pusaka (aka, "hidebound.") We know that Paul de Thouars and Rudy ter Linden, back when they were still friends, traded techniques, and it is not hard to believe that other students of different systems who happened to find themselves in proximity would have done likewise. It still happens today frequently. And it wouldn't make me raise an eyebrow at all to believe that a Tjimande student could have wandered off to a village a few miles away and altered what he learned enough to justifying calling it something else -- if he bothered to call it anything at all. Bruce Lee studied Wing Chung in Hong Kong for what? Four years? And used it as a basis for JKD, which, whatever it is, isn't Wing Chung. The most telling connection between Sera and Tjimande comes from looking at them and seeing similarities. I don't see these between what Pendekar Sanders' Cimande looks like and Sera, but I do see some when comparing Brother Tristan's moves with Stevan Plinck's. Not the same, but much more closely related than, say, Sera and Harimu, even though we do have groundwork. There's no proof of what the connection was/is, but just like rock and roll music came from the blues and rockabilly and you can see the evolution, I believe that our art was born close enough to Tjimande so that they may have had a common root, or at least some of the same nutrients in the soil. Sure, there are Indonesian and Malay silat styles that developed independently of Tjimande. But I see a kinship with Sera.
The word Cimande (not Chi-Mande, also tjimande is an old Spell, now we use Cimande) comes from Ci and Mande. Ci comes from word "cai" (cai is Sundanese, means water... because West Java is rich of water source and river) and mande is tiger. Cimande means water that tiger always come to drink. In Sundanese, it is normal named a place after a water ("cai"), like cikalong, ("kalong" = bat) which means the water where in the three round the river have many bat. Cimanuk, ("manuk" = bird) which means a river that has many birds, etc. Because of my poor english, my words had been wrong understood (Is that right Om Tristan? Saya coba bilang, karena jeleknya bahasa Inggris saya, kata-kata saya salah dipahami). What i means which become rich and popular is what happened here in Indonesia. Here, many school tried to issued a weakness and unoriginal of other school, especially when a stranger comes and learns "Penca". They said, this school is bad... this school is a thief, they make a certificate to prove its originallity, etc. But actually, that's happened not only in Pencak. Because of globalitation, it's happened in many aspects of life. Om Tristan, when was the last time you visited Indonesia? Come now here, and you will be suprised. The other way, i'm very proud of you Bobbe and Om Tristan. Because of people like you, our culture and arts becomes famous and has its place in West. More important is, we can know each other better and build a relationship and peace. :Angel: Sadly i have to say... Sahbandar isn't a PERSON, but a place. A person its self named Kosim (normally Mama Kosim, Mama here means Great Elders... in a term of Islamic religion). In my family's story, Mama Kosim was a son of Pagaruyung aristocracy (Pagaruyung located in West Sumatra), which had been leaved West Sumatra because of "masalah adat" (a traditional problem). Mama Kosim him self lived in a village named Sahbandar, he learned "Pencak" from his family and also "refined" it after his match with the other when he worked as a dock worker. Then, he learned sufistic from Ajengan Cirata, (Ajengan = Islamic leader, Cirata = Name of a place near Purwakarta and Bandung, also Ajengan Cirata is a Islamic leaders named after a place where he lived). Ajengan Cirata became a Pencak's Student of Mama Kosim, and Mama Kosim became a student of traditional boarding school of Ajengan Cirata. After he learned a sufistic from Ajengan Cirata, his silat style had a new method in inhale and exhale a breath, like you can see in Nampon's video. Nampon him self maybe learned when he met with Mama Kosim in a same traditional boarding school of Ajengan Cirata. Yes, not only them... but Bang Madi, Bang Ma'ruf, Bang Ateng Alimudin, Ajengan Biru, Ajengan Cirata and a little bit late... with Mama Ibrahim too (Cikalong) Yes Bobbe, i'm Sundanese. And The story of King Siliwangi and his son Prince Kiansantang is also important if we want to talk a classic story of Sundanese Pencak Silat. Hahaha... you right Bobbe, my house is approximately 3 km from Pak Herman's family. But i never learned from Pak Herman's family, saya hanya pengagum nya saja. ps: Om Tristan, when will you get married? Oh God, congratulation! Then hurry... hide that underwear!
Selamat pagi Bradlee, Between you and Kiai, both of you provide us with solid and priceless information aobut silat and its origin. Thank you both! I have not been home in the last five years. I'm planning to go home this year, Insya Allah! For whatever its worth, I'm getting married in August this year. This is my second marriage. I have five chlidren from the first marriage which ended in devorced 9 years ago. I've been "straight" say to speak, since I met my current fiance. I don't have any choices, she is a psychologist, she knew..you know what I meant. Bersatu kita teguh, bercerai kita runtuh. Tristan
