Somehow the 'Inside Kungfu' thread has become corrupted and I can't view it anymore. It appears that TuanKaki posted some things at the end that I would like to respond to. Tuankaki, if you're reading, could you please repost your answer here? Thanx in advance.
sorry guys, closing this thread as the original shall be fixed asap. If it becomes unfixable, I'll re-open this one.
To continue the discussion on the last subject...pukulan as developed by the Dutch Indos is seen as a seperate style here in Holland. The intricasies of pukulan can not be viewed on video, the medium is to crude to show the details, even when you witness a technique from closeby, you still won't know how it feels unless you feel it. Pukulan is far more refined than what you initially can see and my (informed) guess is that the uncles de Vries will not just show their stuff on video. The name 'Serak' has turned in America from a closed family-system to a worldwide known brand with a whole load of gurus to market it. On the one hand it makes sure that Pukulan or in this case Serak will continue to exist, which is good, on the other hand the knowledge will probably decrease with each new generation. By the way...same things happen here in Holland as well with a lot of styles.. The fact that so many people train pukulan or serak together with other styles like kali or another system can indicate two things: - People nowadays have enough time to really master several styles like in the old days - People don't understand the core principles enough so that they 'expand' their knowledge by studying other arts. I myself am only a beginner and enthousiastic amateur who has no illusions on completely mastering Pukulan in a lifetime, so for me...I will never be a guru. I'm still just practicing my first two Jurus So why would I pickup another style? That will probably slow me down in my development...
Nice post taoizt,i agree with your view that people dont understand the core principles enough so therefore add more styles,jeet kune do practitioners come to mind here!
taoizt]To continue the discussion on the last subject...pukulan as developed by the Dutch Indos is seen as a seperate style here in Holland. The intricasies of pukulan can not be viewed on video, the medium is to crude to show the details, even when you witness a technique from closeby, you still won't know how it feels unless you feel it. Pukulan is far more refined than what you initially can see and my (informed) guess is that the uncles de Vries will not just show their stuff on video. The name 'Serak' has turned in America from a closed family-system to a worldwide known brand with a whole load of gurus to market it. On the one hand it makes sure that Pukulan or in this case Serak will continue to exist, which is good, on the other hand the knowledge will probably decrease with each new generation. By the way...same things happen here in Holland as well with a lot of styles.. I'm confused here...I'm NOT the outhoriy in Silat, far from it. When you said the pukulan, what its really mean? Are you saying Pukulan as an interpretation of the silat techniques? Or just merely word interpretation? With all do respect, is that true that the Ducth Indo develop the Pukulan? Or just interpreatation of the techniques or broaden the basic interpretation of the silat as they knew it? I too is still beginer, I'm still doing what I have learned from my uncle 51 years ago. I must admitted that I'm a slow learning in Silat. And I'm okay with this. I had met many of so called master, pendekar, who did good in a short of times (10-20 years of training). What I had found is that they lacked in understanding why we moves or do this certain movements, the meaning, and the tasks. They may understanding the objectives, but in between tasks and objectives, they did not have a clear understanding of the body mechanics. One examploe, if you are going to use your hands to protect your from an attack, then your both hands should not far from your body. When you see someone doing the form or techniques with their hands away from the body, then you may asked them why? To block or to puch, we must stride to begin where the hand last position, If you have to brings your hand to the chamber or whatever it was, then it could be too little to late. Something to think about in this Holiday Season. Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah, Happy Kwanza and Happy New Year to everyone!!!!! Tristan
Well, at least I've learnt something here For me, pukulan just means hitting, for Dutch Indos it seems to mean a different style entirely Anyway, Selamat Hari Natal to everyone
Hello taoizt, Not sure what you mean by study serak together with kali or other styles, you don't mean blending do you? I did spend a great deal of time and effort studying Lacoste/Inosanto kali, JKD, etc. Actually now I only have time for the study of Serak. And that I have to do everyday to have any hope of making a reasonable amount of progress in my life time. Pak Vic tells us just to count the hours we spend in training and not months, years, etc. His advice is 2 hours a day minimum. In Serak the Pukulan is inseperable from the rest of the art according to Pak Vic.
Hello Orang Jawa, this example you give can for instance indicate a difference between Pencak Silat and Pukulan, at least, that is in Holland. Pencak Silat is also about nice, sometimes open stances (to lure your opponent in...) and to give your opponent a chance to hit you. In Pukulan that is a No-No. When I move to my opponent an armslength away, that is in pukulan terms long-distance. Well, anyway....let's stick to my definition of Pukulan being the Pencak Silat without the cultural part.. From me as well, a Happy New Year to everyone!
Hi Taoizt, Happy new year to you and all the others on this forum. The definition of pukulan will allways be clouded with symantics on it's origins. Indeed in the Netherlands some influencial teachers of the first Dutch-Indonesians generation defined pukulan as a fighting art mainly developed by Dutch-Indonesians. Some claim it to be a mixture of Kuntao and traditional Silat. Some people in Indonesia (but also the US) never heard of Pukulan as a traditional fighting art. Maybe it's because most Pukulan arts in the Netherlands are refered to as Pukulan Betawi. Nevertheless it is one of those subjects people don't agree easily on. I do know my relatives in Jakarta also use Pukulan and Pukulan Betawi as a more or less generic term for some of the styles they are familiar with in kampungs surrounding them like Pukulan Rowo Belong etc. The art my great grandfather trained in is at least (probably much older) of the early start of the previous century and he was fullblooded Indonesian. So to me the link between Pukulan and Dutch-Indonesians is not so obvious. Maybe it's because the name Pukulan is more specific to the greater Jakarta area of the pre WWII period than to Indonesia in general and post WWII in particular. Who will know for sure... Pekir
Pukulan Betawi I think you are correct there Pekir. In Indonesia, particularly amongst the Betawi ethnic group, maen pukulan, means bersilat. The name Pukulan as a stand alone word describing a martial art I suppose was created by the usage by the Dutch-Indo from around the Betawi area. Maybe even Dutch-Indo people from other areas in Indonesia as well, for not many Dutch Indo actually could speak the local language like Jawa or Sunda and Malay was the lingua franca often used. Maen Pukulan is Betawi Malay for playing punch. So yo do have pukulan rawabelong, pukulan Tanahabang, pukulan Cingkrik Goning . All the Betawi styles can be called pukulan styles. So really, what you call Pukulan now is just an other style of silat. Warm Salaams, KC
Always difficult not to generalize when trying to point out a bigger picture but I concur, pukulan is one of the pencak silat expressions, more so since the present post WWII uniformity of definitions. Taoizt has a point though that most of the pukulan I've seen don't 'perform' kembangan or are not able to attend /compete in 'original' seni competition. But as always I might be wrong.... Hormat, Pekir
