This is in no way meant to disrespect anyone or any style. It's just my personal observation. I'm hoping to get your input on something that's been puzzling me for awhile. At open tournaments' sparring events, you can usually tell who the TKD/korean stylists are by their movements & leg techniques. You can usually figure out who the karate/japanese stylists are, too. However, why is it difficult to distinguish the CMA stylists, if it weren't for their uniforms or printed t-shirts? Furthermore, why is it difficult to distinguish one gung fu fighter's style from another gung fighter's style at an open or CMA-only tournament? Like, "Hey, that guy obviously does CLF!" or "Yo, she fights with classical HG technique!" or "Wow, his WC is awesome against that Bak Mei!" (Golden Harvest showed fights where fighters kept true to their learned styles...I know, I know...it's just in the movies, but why just there?) Gung fu has lots of graceful & intricate hand techniques, leg positions & other movements. Why do these aesthetically-pleasing body movements that are practiced so diligently at kwoons everywhere suddenly disappear when push comes to shove? Perhaps restricting tournament rules & wearing gloves has something to do with it. Still, why does gung fu's sophisticated moves turn to basic punches & kicks that make pracitioners look like other karateka & kickboxers at tournaments, etc. (except when performing sets)? This is just what I've seen. Maybe you've seen different? Or maybe you've noticed the same thing? Thanks in advance. Gung hei fat choy!
because when the faecal matter hits the oscillatory device you use the best things you have, which are generally the basics.
Style can still be distinguishable, but there are so many styles out there, with so many variations its hard to spot at times, Pak Mei for example is a mix of Tiger with others and can be easily mistaken with other Tiger styles and vice versa. Off the top of your head...how many CMAs can you name? Out of those..how many have you seen in FULL? as in the subtlties of each movement and so forth? Its kinda like watching a Japanese Jui-jitsu vs a Brazilain JJ..they are similar but very different at the same time...but to the unknowing eye, its 2 guys in white robes rolling on the floor. Besides...just because the move looks aesthetically pleasing as you put it..how good does it look when you're KOed? In Pak Mei, I was told, that to see a how good a practioner is..is to see his Jik Bo (Straight set, taught first). We have many other sets too, but its this first one that you've learnt is what really sizes up your power and abilities.
more to it... I think ikken is right in what he says about reverting to basics, however I believe that is only part of the story in this case. There seems to be a bad trend concerning sparring or fighting by practitioners of chinese fighting systems, in which a kung fu player will train their forms, and learn the various techniques, but when it comes to actually fighting, they drop into a stereotypical boxing or kickboxing style of fighting. This in no way is supposed to suggest, that way of fighting is bad...in fact, when I hear people say, while watching supposed kung fu fighters fight, "Look, he's just reverting to a western boxing stance", I always think...no, to say that, is an insult to western boxing...all they are doing is imitating western boxing. Personally, I like the philosophy of western boxing in as much as they take several techniques and combinations (whatever they may be), and then drill them over and over...this is the only way to build it into your muscle memory, so it becomes subconscious and natural. Now, the problem with a lot of kung fu fighters is that they are taught the traditional forms, and the inherent techniques, but fail to test what techniques work for them, and then to drill those techniques to death...and then some more. However, having said that, they should not limit themselves solely to those few techniques, and finding the balance in these two sides of the coin is part of the challenge of learning kung fu. I?ve heard some of the seniors at my school refer to it as ?making the techniques your own?. Also, people say that the rules and gloves in the ring limit kung fu fighters in what they can and can't do and the techniques they can implement, however while this does play a part, it does not provide an excuse for completely losing your form and stance work/mobility, that you've trained as a kung fu player. It does not give you an excuse to start jumping around and moving like a boxer, which I've seen happen a lot. The thing is, boxers train that way of moving, and know how to use it properly in order to dodge and weave, evade, and set up attacks...but as I said above, all the kung fu fighters are doing is imitating the movement, without knowing how to use it properly. That's why they'll get annihalated by a proper kickboxer/boxer. Because while boxers/kickboxers use what they train, unfortunately, a lot of kung fu players, train kung fu techniques, and then imitate something else when it comes to fighting. Before you bother worrying about what?s going on with the hands, you have to build a solid platform (stance and mobility) on which to move your attacks on. Fast hands will do little without a solid platform on which to draw the power from and bring your attack to the opponent. So, as I said above, while the limiting rules and gloves of a ring do play a part in how a kung fu fighter fights, those factors can?t be used as an excuse for kung fu fighters losing their platform and body mechanics they should have been training, as soon as they step in the ring. What kung fu fighters need to do is really train the traditional techniques that they learn, with the same intensity as what a boxer trains what they learn, and then they'll be a formidable fighting force. This is all my opinion of course, so hopefully no one takes offence at it. After all, I'm just another insignificant anonymous person in the never-ending sea of the internet... P.S I practice Pak mei too, and agree with what Mushroom said about Jik Bo being representative of your Pak Mei ability. This is my interpretation of Jik Bo, Mushroom, I?d be interested to hear your interpretation: It only consists of 3 movements, but it teaches the correct Pak Mei body mechanics (external and internal), plus the entering (bridging/trapping) and attacking with power (getting full potential out of the movement of the body as one, coming up through the stance, through the waist and out the arms), plus the all important bik bo (which I understand as the ability in focusing and projecting your kinetic energy forward into the opponent as you step towards them aggresivly??I?m only new to Pak Mei (1 year), so I might be wrong). Sorry for the long rant?
That statement put a smile on my face. Yet I am puzzled because to me it does look like two guys in white pajamas rolling around, so I must be in the unknowing. :cry: If you ever watch or play the game of basketball, the movements in the game resemble much of the same movements used in martial arts. There aren't a whole lot of different ways people seem to move and still move naturally, yet very few can move like the way Michael Jordon did on the court. Styles or schools of martial arts training do ingrain certain teaching that can be unique or different than what is taught elsewhere, but when it comes to fighting, there isn't anything called a style, it is all just martial arts. At world class levels, you won't see much difference in the way people move at a gross level, nor will you see that many different concepts in use, it will all be similar. The only real differences are probably in the details of techniques used. I was trained in different variations of some of the same techniques when I trained in BJJ opposed to what I learned in Aikido opposed to what I learned in karate, opposed to what I learned in Kajukenbo. Going back to Jordon and basketball, all players move in similar ways on a gross level and in concepts, but each individual player differs in the details of how they move and play the game. In sparring against a variety of different schools and people, if someone does not move naturally, they usually get beat quite quickly, so it does not matter what style they train in. So everyone starts to develop better natural movements and they tend to look very similar, like how basketball players move. However, when they get a chance to employ techniques, the details of the techniques can be different. I can see in the details what type of training someone has been involved in. The forms and techniques are still in there, but not at the gross movement levels, only in the details.
I think for the most part people just don't recognize the techniques in fighting. Also alot of them would be illegal in tournament fighting. Unlike the movies you don't stand in deep stances and hold beautiful postures if your not useing them for something. Stances are often used in combination with the hands for trips, leg locks, takedowns, and throws. Picture what most takedowns would look like as shadow boxing and you will see alot of form like movements. Alot of times the hands can be used without the legs or the legs without the hands. The form shows you the whole technique but sometimes against a live opponent you have to break out the part that fits the opportunity. Alot of cma techniques are locks and defenses against weapons which won't be used in a tournement fight and many are takeing advantage of the momentum of a true attack or a guy charging across a battle field so the simple fact that your faceing a guy who's trying to spar you or out stratagize you eliminates the possibilities of useing many traditional techniques. Lets take a look at sow choy from choy li fut. First point is that traditionaly we aim to hit with the bone in the forearm. The second point is that it is almost always done in or with the leg sweeping back into tameing the tiger stance. This is essentialy a strike into a takedown. If he blocks the impact on his arm can still work with the legs for a takedown, If the opponant ducks he will still get swept or triped up, if he picks up his leg to avoid the sweep he will still get hit by a powerful arm strike, if he fades back he will get hit by the fist instead of the arm, and if he jumps back to completely avoid the technique he will be to far away for a counter attack. It's not perfect but it's a very good techniqe but the simple fact that you have to aim to strike with the forearm to use it right means it's illegal in most tournaments. If you aim with the fist your not at the right range for takedowns, if you use it as a punch without the stance it can be powerfull but also easily defended. In an art meant for war and survival applying rules eliminates the value of many techniques!
Thats Shi Xing Hong versus a tae kwon do black belt in Korea. It was just a demonstration not a real fight to show off the skills of each others art. If you can look for any other videos of Shi Xing Hong and youll see how amazingly skilled he is.
Yes, very cool. I think the man dressed in the colored outfit might be the kung fu guy. I don't know though, they both used their legs for moving, both jumped and kicked, both used mobility and base (rooted) depending on the technique.
Just wanted to tell 2 littles things about "nice moves becoming basics" That is "mostly" because "most" kung fu classes lack sparring, or they lack including their techniques to the sparring. I've seen 3 masters (2 hung gar and 1 Pakua) sparring.... hell its impressive... Even if you don't know anything about these styles you'll think "WHAT WAS THAT!!" Simply because those guys really use their style. ANd if you can't tell wich style it is just by looking at it, maybe its because you dont know much about the different CMA, there's way too many... And btw, I know alot of kung fu guys who look like kick-boxers even after like 8-10 years in their styles. This happens just too often. I think those guys are missing somthing... Anyway.. I still look like a bad kickboxer when I fight...
I too look like a kickboxer when I fight. Hec, most times when people ask me what i do I say "kickboxing".
have you trained in kickboxing? if not, you dont look like a kickboxer except to someone who doesnt know the difference. It is quite easy to tell the difference between a kickboxer and someone who pretends to be one.
I totally agree with what srh said. I think what it boils down to is that lots of people who do kung fu are more interested in leaning deep stances to look cool doing forms and learning lots of hand techniques to fight with, but very rarely try to put the two together. Therefore when the start fighting the naturally revert to higher ‘non-kung fu’ stances. I know I for one could probably do with less technique work and get back to good old stance work.
Strange... I'd have said that full contact kickboxing fighters look like bad boxers. As in most hardly ever use their feet in full contact. karate fighters look like good kickboxers, but with a bad high guard. Taekwondo fighters look ermmmmm.....weirdly like bad karate fighters. While Kung Fu fighters,well...........we're lovers not fighters! But we look good whatever we do. yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lol Yeah we look good! well anyway.. Hell, sounds to aggressive to me... I don't pretend to be kickboxing, I am! We have kick boxers in our class (like 5-6 years kickboxing experience) and we followed some kickboxing class cause "basicly" kung fu sparring is kick boxing with style So we learn the basics, and then we add the techniques! No techniques could be used without knowing the basics. And btw I did say I was a poor kick boxer! The reason we start with kickboxing is because kickboxing is all about basics! Thats why it's effective! So to use kung fu, you must know "kickboxing" in a way. Not saying kickboxing is the basics of kung fu Not saying kung fu is the higher grade kickboxing Just saying KB really helps ! And yes we kung fu people always look great! hehehe
