Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I would venture that few Japanese learned that either!
  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Welcome back.
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Time, skill, luck, dedication, ability, rapport with your teacher, perserverance, and many other qualities. If ninjutsu was a simple art or if it was taught as widely by dedicated teachers as judo, karate, etc, it would be a different story. Still no Japanese masters who live permanently in a foreign country and no foreigners learned the art until late 60s I believe.
  4. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    [QUOTJust want to jump back a little to what was discussed earlier i.e. Sandstorm not refusing the grade, as something just occured to me.

    If sandstorm had not accepted the high grades and lets say just remained at shodan, would people be saying that...

    "Sandstorm didnt stay around long enough to get a decent grade"

    Its kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Now I personally have 2nd dan as my highest grade, and in some respects for my length of time studying the art (on and off) since 1985 this has come to be a hinderance. I know for example that if I held a higher grade that I might be in a much better position now when it comes to marketting myself and grading my own students.

    And this is the thing. we are often told that grades in bujinkan don't mean anything, but we also hear the question "What right have you got to grade your students to 5th dan in your system of ninjutsu when you only hold a lower grade.

    In the past I have also been offered grades to do certain things, open certain groups in my area, or join certain organisations. (and not just me but my students also) But I have left certain organisations rather than prostitute myself for the rank just to be a dojo leader for someone to expand their empire.

    This is nothing against sandstorm of course, as I was once trold that if you refuse a rank from the Japanese you will never get graded again no matter how good you are. And i can see why he accepted rank.

    I wonder what rank reality please is, does he believe he is worth that rank, and if not has he refused any ranks?

    Just a thought.E][/QUOTE]

    To be honest Garh,

    I don't think it matters what grade you hold or held. As you quiet rightly said, you're damned if you don't and damned if you do.

    If you started training for example in 1982 and now hold a Ni-dan, it could be argued that you didn't try hard enough. If you now held Goju-dan it could be argued that it was awarded too soon. All this discontent among the BJK practitioners in the west is another reason why I decided to move away. Statements like "you have never trained in Japan so you really don't understand Ninjutsu" is a common statement, or "you didn't train long enough in Japan" is another one. Whatever you do you cant win. it's basically a catch 22 situation. I am aware that training in Japan is quite different to training in the west as we don't have the mind set and to be perfectly frank when I studied in Japan i was no where near the level of my Japanese counter part.

    It was never my intention to learn all the immense history, the nine schools, associated Ryu-Ha etc. All I was looking for was combat techniques that were workable.


  5. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    With respect Reality-Please I think we should all give up on this ninjutsu business because it clearly is impossible to understand unless you are a) very well off financially in order to re-locate to Japa, b) you are actually Japanese (which means you are already in Japan), and even if you can do all of this and everything else you have mentioned you still might not get it!

    No wonder the technique is to hide! (Togakure-Ryu)


  6. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    [quoteI wonder what rank reality please is, does he believe he is worth that rank, and if not has he refused any ranks?][/quote]

    Without meaning to be rude and with the up most respect, would it be possible for you Reality please to inform us of your current grade status??

    Also your current age if possible please?


  7. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    If you need to go to Japan to"get it" And further you need a Shihan as a teacher.The anyone from Japan ,running an organisation selling "Ninjutsu"outside of Japan ,must be a thief and a charlatan ? You cant have it both ways RP.
    I left because it was not fit for purpose.
    In my opinion what most people were learning did not enable them to fight.
  8. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    That's a good point George, you cant get real training outside Japan, yet the Japanese Soke, Kancho, are encouraging and producing instructors world wide.

    In fact, a message was posted on George O'Hashi's bulletin board from Hatsumi, saying not to ask Japanese Shihan to come abroad to teach seminars, he said that there is now enough skill in other countries that the Japanese Shihan don't need to go.

    Reality Please, are you disagreeing with what Hatsumi has said? Or in fact calling him a liar?

    Personally I think it's more to do with the Japanese Shihan realizing the following they could have abroad if they so desired, but that's a moot point as what's being discussed is whether or not you support Hatsumi's position on this, as your previous posts seem to be to the contrary.

    You've also said perhaps not in so many words that Sandstorm:RS's combat experience does not qualify him to teach Ninjutsu, yet Hatsumi Soke of the BJK 9 schools saw fit to award him grades up to Hachidan based on his background. If Hatsumi felt that Sandstorm:RS could bring something to the art who are you (or I, or anyone) to decide otherwise?

    We're also not talking about someone that trained briefly then left to do their own thing, 18 years is a long time, long enough to gain a better understanding of the system than most. Perhaps a better understanding than you as you've yet to respond to the questions regarding your rank and time training.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011
  9. tenchijin2

    tenchijin2 Valued Member

    "ninjutsu" is NOT "budo taijutsu." It's not even "ninpo taijutsu."

    The terminology is being missed by some of you. Having a rank in the bujinkan does not mean you understand ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is a very particular subset of skills within the bjk, that very few people understand. Ninpo taijutsu is a different matter again, although you'll note Hatsumi sensei dropped that many years ago. What you are being graded in is BUDO TAIJUTSU. NOT ninjutsu.

    The taijutsu is influenced by ninjutsu ideas and philosophies. But the taijutsu is also influenced by samurai, possibly shugenja, and probably a couple hundred years of civilian martial artists. Therefore to cling to the term "ninjutsu" is not very accurate.

  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    All this you won get *insert art here* if you are not from and train in *insert country of origin here* is banded about like an elitist thing and is actuall a racist point of view and a failure to accept that no matter where your from you won't get it if you don't train and you will get it if you do.

    Sorry I don't buy into the foreigners don't get it rubbish. Ive heard it in other arts and it usually banded about by people who themselves have not got it but think they have because they are genetically from the right country in their heads but have not trained that much themselves.

    They seem to think getting an art from *insert country of origin here* is a genetic right as opposed to actually training.

    You get good and bad people in every art regardless of which country they come from. Getting it has nothing to do with genetics and has everything to do with training.

    Best regards

  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    True confessions? I don't care what other people may say about you but I am very proud of you George for manning up in this public forum and admitting what you are.

    Have what both ways?
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I am glad you are arguing about what was written and not what you want to hear(that is sarcasm btw). Actually, who ever said if you aren't Japanese you can't learn it? Not me for sure. If you read what was written, you will see that I said it has been done by non Japanese. However, the point you are missing is that, there are few Japanese that have mastered it. Very few. Since you clearly aren't familiar with the art, your perspective is understandable but respectfully, a bit skewed. If there are only a handful of Japanese who got it, and much of their time is spent babysitting foreigners who haven't, it makes it more difficult(especially now) to have the time needed to learn the arts with them.

  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Good points. However, in the end, most are not being transmitted the arts that make up the Bujinkan, including ninjutsu.

  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    This isn't the first thread a lot of these questions have come up, probably won't be the last...

  15. garth

    garth Valued Member

    @Reality Please

    You seem to have avoided any questions about your rank, age or teacher.

    You said it has been discussed before and to use the search function so I did entering your name and the search parameters "Dan" and "Grade" and nothing came up.

    As I am now not the only one asking your grade can you please let us know what it is, also your age, and who your teacher is in japan?

    My background has been posted on here (Thread of its own) as has George's and even Sandstorm has come forward with his background. Can you see fit to do the same?

  16. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    RP I've heard this excuse so many times in so many arts I don't have to understand the art to know it is just an excuse for someone who thinks they are more genetically correct to know an art over a so called foreigner. Like I said ifyou train you get it. If you don't you don't get it and being a foreigner has nothing to do with it.

    If it is it means the instructors are holding out on the foreigners and you should ask for your money back because your not getting what you paid for.

    Best regards

  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Actually Pat, your more right than you think.

    In many cultures that have adapted other cultures works, they have in many instances become better at what the originators of the technology or art began with.

    The Japanese as a nation have excelled at this improving on everything from methods of warfare, technology to business, all areas I might add that came from other countries.

    So to say that other cultures can't improve upon a Japanese art is a little close minded.

    Sure ninjutsu is a Japanese term, but it does not mean that the Japanese were the only people to engage in areas such as stealth, camouflage, and covert operations. Indeed the west has excelled in it, and i'm not just talking about the modern operations of the CIA etc, but operations that go back hundreds of years in European history. So in this respect the Japanese certainly didnt have the monopoly.

    The Japanese also seemed it fit enough to adopt firearms into their arsenal from the west, particularly the ninja, so is there anything wrong with a western person adopting techniques of ninjutsu into their own martial background?

  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Earth to Mr OMalley, you still aren't listening. What excuse have you heard? I will repeat once more for the hard of reading, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE JAPANESE TO GET NINJUTSU, in my humble opinion. Do you need to know Japanese, live in Japan, and study with one of the FEW Japanese masters of the art? YES, WITHOUT A DOUBT!!

  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Who said other cultures can't improve on Japanese things? However, to improve something like an art and to know if your alterations are an improvement or not, you have to know the art in the first place. If you don't, you are not improving or altering it, you are mimicking what you think the art is and copying something you don't understand.

    ps-good thing you edited that, I was about to ask what hojojutsu had to do with firearms? Arresting people sure but....:cool:
  20. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Really? Your research skills are pretty pitiful if you can't even find where my rank and teacher has been discussed on MAP. Haven't avoided anything, it has been discussed before on more than one thread.

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