Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    lemme tell a story: :hat:

    once there was a man who had a vineyard full of grapes. he gave some of the grapes to his followers. some of those followers left for greener pastures and continued planting the grapes.

    word of the grapes spread. more and more are clamoring for it. realizing that the seeds were a hindrance to immediate consumption, he developed seedless grapes. these grapes were delicious, people asked for more to take home to their places.

    realizing that the travel will very much spoil the grapes, it was decided to ship them as raisins. and thus raisins are the ones that were offered to the people and eaten.

    others decided to grow their own vineyards. there's one problem: all they have are seedless raisins.

    AND that's the big problem. no matter how many tons of raisins they import, they still can't say "I have my OWN supply of GRAPES".

    and you know why? it's because the head honcho only sells raisins nowadays. any no matter what packaging and labeling one does, if you only got the raisins, there's no way you can claim to sell fresh and juicy grapes because you only have dried and shriveled raisins on hand.

    so the question is then, how can you get some juicy grapes?

    and fu bag, the difference between those two groups you mentioned is that the ones still in the org sells raisins passing them off as grapes, and the other DUBIOUS independents (I can include SKH here) say that they have their OWN grapes but the truth is they are raisins.

    in short, one usually appeals to authority(the soke) and the other sets THEMSELVES up as an authority.
  2. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Every martial arts organisation has a beginning. In that beginning someone is either appointed, voted or sets themselves up as the authority. None of this martial arts stuff just magically appeared.

    What is important is that whoever is in authority within an organisation is offering quality tuition and running an honest business/organisation.

    Now stop disrespecting raisins. I ate 6 boxes of them the other day. They were yummy.
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Yes, you have a bunch of people who shouldn't be teaching running around both within and without the organization. So claiming that there were a bunch of people who sucked thus they left is a hollow and illogical argument. It sounds like they mean to say, "I sucked when I was in the organization so I left to suck on my own two feet." However, even after leaving, they are trying to capitalize on the arts they claim to have left, not to mention some who try to come and go as they please while prioritizing teaching over learning.

    This is very different from learning an art from someone who can teach, does understand and can demonstrate the art correctly, and basically becoming their disciple(which is the way the arts have traditionally been passed down, the way Hatsumi sensei learned from Takamatsu sensei, and the way the shihan learned from him). If you are not learning a martial art in this way, no matter what the art, you will end up with something less and either accept that or be forced to mix and match in order to progress.

    One example is Bruce Lee. Due to his inability to continue training with his master(due to relocation), he was forced to learn from other sources will continuing to pressure test what he had already learned(correct techniques from a competent source). The rest is history.
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Slow down.

  5. Big Will

    Big Will NinpƓ Ikkan

  6. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Hikendo, the art of longwindedness?

  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Part 2

  8. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Ok, so Garth has pretty much let that statement stand. So we know that if we go to the Genbukan honbu in Japan there will be no record of him having any sort of black belt rank in the organization. This clears things up.

    I think I found a fatal flaw built into this thread from the start. The OP wrote this,

    I think it should have the following conditions added.

    Because while there are cases where someone has spent a good long time in one art and goes their own way, 9 times out of 10 it is someone who really did not put in a lot of time and took the short cut to being a teacher. This is not exclusive to ninjutsu. There are tons of folks who start their own thing and they can't give any greater reason than trying to trash all the arts they could study and their credentials are dubious at best.

    Again, this is not only for ninjutsu. I have seen things like someone starting their own martial art after some rather dubious training in karate. They usually start out by saying that the older styles are not useful in the modern world, that solo kata is a waste of time, etc. This is their justification for starting their own style and they expect everyone to welcome them and acknowledge their mastery.

    But then the guys who have been doing Shotokan for 30 years start talking about how this guy with two years or less of training under his belt really does not know what they hell he is talking about when he trashes kata and everything else.

    The guys with the greater experience do not appreciate these young, self appointed masters trashing what they do in order to justify their ego trip.

    And yeah, it is about ego and taking the short cut to being thought of as a teacher 9 out of 10 times. Take a look at all those soke boards that attract folks seeking wall candy. It is not just ninjutsu. Most new styles of martial arts you run across on the internet now days have a rather insecure, egotistical guy without much ethics as their founder. If you don't tell them up front to be honest with their credentials and ask them to justify what they do without attacking others, you get a mess every time.

    Yes, they will comment in threads about quality control in the Bujinkan, but they don't like it when folks talk about their lack of quality.

    And outside of ninjutsu, you can pretty much bet they will bring up the fact that Bruce Lee started his own style as well and try to compare themselves to him. The simple fact is, most folks with their own art are closer to this guy than Lee.

    [ame=""]Red SCorpion Ninjutsu[/ame]
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  9. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    To kind of illustrate what I think Reality Please is talking about when he says that saying that you have been involved in martial arts is not enough, I have picked an example from outside of ninjutsu.

    Take a look at the following.

    Click here to see the biography of "Shihan Dave."

    You will note that right at the top he states that he has 30 years experience in marital arts. Most people would expect some sort of quality with that many years. But, even if he is being truthful, isn't it possible that most of that time was spent teaching instead of practicing and learning?

    So what can we expect if we see one of videos of him demonstrating his skill. The answer lies below for your viewing "pleasure."

    [ame=""]Enabling disabled, click here to see the clip over on youtube.[/ame]
  10. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Personally I'd go learn off the fat dude ... the first one. :)
  11. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Valued Member

    Both of those videos were wonders to behold. Loved the flinching and hiding audience members in the second video. :cool:
  12. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Reality Please posted

    Does that mean that Tanemura and Manaka are doing it incorrectly?

    You have taken that completely out of context with a silly analogy.

    So maybe we should take all 15th dans in the Bujinkan seriously because they have the grades?

    Again you are completely misrepresenting my training background. As i have attended 6-7 seminars with tanemura that alone works out to at least 14 days training, lets not forget the seminars with Hatsumi, Tanaka, and the guys from the sato kimbei school.

    I think your actually being disingenuous. My training background has been spoken about and discussed on a seperate thread, but it seems you are taking my background and dividing anything I do by 5.

    This is why I will not answer anymore posts after this reply to you, simply because you are doing your best to ridicule instead of discuss. in fact this thread has disolved into nothing more than a witch hunt on your part.

    No it just means that I didn't kiss the right arses.

    you know as well as I do that in the Bujinkan people do the right thing and they get graded without actually showing any skill. And you yourself has stated that many people without grade are not worth it, so can't quite see why you are asking for grades as a guarantee of skill.

    Surely the guarantee of skill is skill.

    Your being disingenuous again but I don't know why that you only think that the Japanese are the authorities.

    Is it possible that westerners know that art also. What about Doron Navon, does he know the art, or Jack Hoban as just two examples?

    I know you won't say Stephen K Hayes, even though he was training before any of us even knew the art existed, but as far as i'm concerned SKH is one of the finest teachers of Ninjutsu out there.

    but of course you won't agree with that.

    Oh of course only those who live in Japan have the real deal, and they learn it so well they get their arses kicked on Human weapon :rolleyes:

    When did I mention a shooting incident?

    You keep bringing this up, so can you place a link where I said it?

    Yes but what makes you think that the bujinkan should be the yardstick, because personally I don't see any indication of ability or technique in the organisation.

    This is why you need to read threads a bit more before trying to say things that are clearly wrong.

    Thats probably (as far as i'm aware) because Norman hasn't.

    Well no, if you know Norman said something and you have read it please put a link here.

    But this is a person who like you lives in Japan and apparantly like you is getting the real deal. so why do you think you are any different?


    So not Tanemura then, or Manaka?


    Yep and you don't have an ego either:rolleyes: you must be so good

    So basically your saying (if i'm reading it correctly) is don't study from a 15th dan in your own country, its Japan or nothing.

    So whats your problem.

    Because one minute you say that I have links to the Takamatsuden through what I teach, and then you say I don't.

    Make up your mind.

    OK lets cut to the chase. Did you actually see those videos?

    because if you didn't your going from hearsay and basing your beliefs on others peoples views.

    I posted

    Your reply

    No you would be telling the truth, something we can all check up on. In other words it demonstratable.

    But if you make a statement about yourself without a name then the claim means nothing, for you could be anyone. This is why a statement in law is nothing without a name and will not be used in court. This is also true of your claim about your teacher without mentioning his name.

    Now the rules of MAP are that you don't have to say who you are, and thats fine, but you can't get away with calling someone fraudulent when they have been totally forthcoming about their background, whilst making claims of your own and not backing them up.

    People have said this to you before and you have obviously missed it.

    In a way to question someone elses ability and experience without willing to come forward with your own is a little hypocritical don't you think. Or to put it another way what you are saying is...

    "I want you to explain everything about yourself and any failure to produce an answer will be seen as lying but I myself am not going to tell you who I am even if I make claims, which I don't have to back up"

    This is another reason why I am not going to continue this discussion with you.

    Its a level playing field or nothing.

    Thats not the translation that Don Roley (IIRC)came out with

    How do you know for Gods sake:bang:

    You havent answered the question. How do you know what your doing works against brute force?

    Indeed are you training in the dojo against someone using brute force on a regular basis?

    Yes mate and these things were common knowledge back in the 80s so don't treat it like you have some special kuden I am not aware of.

    Wait a minute you posted "Linear to circular"

    So are you saying that some of the ryu ha aren't more linear whilst other are more circular?

    Actually the first time one was taken down was when Fu Bag made a good point, so it was re-edited. The second time they came down was because we regained access to our youtube account as we had wanted to get them down for months as they had the wrong contact details on them. This also coincided with someone posting one on here to basically take the michael.

    Well can you tell us what reasons they are?

    Well I can't understand if you don't tell me.

    What is it? is your shihan a secret agent, wanted by Interpol, The man with no name:hat:

    So please enlighten me on why your shihan teacher is SOOOO secret.

    Well as I said those people don't frequent on here, and that is not my fault. I can't twist their arm to come in and give their opinion on me, as some I havent spoken to for years. But there are a number of people that I have mentioned on this forum (The unholy pay attention because I am now answering your post), that you could contact who knew me and saw me grade for 1st Kyu with Robert Hanson as a training partner in Scotland (Stirling to be precise), and then latter wear Black Belt on subsequent seminars and training.

    Now its not beyond you to contact a certain person (Name already mentioned) who knew me at the time, who not only sent another person to me to learn shodan from me, but also in a discussion (I have the email somewhere) about me rejoining and having to retest for black belt, as this is a requirement of rejoining the Genbukan that all grades have to retest.

    Thats it thats me done. When you can reveal who you and I have some degree of confidence that what you say is true, then maybe we can enter into a reasonable discussion.

    Until then the best in your training
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Garth, here is the problem many have with you. They ask you a simple question, which you ignore for awhile, then you answer it with something else. Then you turn around and proclaim how honest and upfront you are about your history. Must be more magic... I believe Don asked you about whose signature was on your menjo, if you have one in the Genbukan. Instead of answering that, we get this:

    This not beyond you part is referring to him(the Unholy) I assume as I have never contacted anybody about you or your background. The interesting thing in all this though is that Mr. Norman Smithers, somebody who knows you well(well enough to mention your ability if you had any), has not once come to your defense. Perhaps you should reflect on that.

    Your videos are no longer viewable so it is impossible to make a judgement on your movement based on actually viewing it. However, many people on MAP whose opinions I respect(due to their posting history and sound ideas they represent), and they said things about your videos that match with the perception I have gained of you from reading some of your 5 years of posting.

    It is easy to prove us wrong about you though. If you repost your videos on youtube or create a new one showing your amazing skills, I am sure many will stop doubting you and your ideas. Until then...
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Considering you don't want to discuss things, you are pretty vocal.

    And good luck with your TEACHING.
  15. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    This thread is going round in circles and is no longer serving any useful purpose, so I'm closing it.

    Just a warning to everyone - Please don't make personal attacks/bitchy comments about forum members in the 'tags' section.
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