lemme tell a story: :hat: once there was a man who had a vineyard full of grapes. he gave some of the grapes to his followers. some of those followers left for greener pastures and continued planting the grapes. word of the grapes spread. more and more are clamoring for it. realizing that the seeds were a hindrance to immediate consumption, he developed seedless grapes. these grapes were delicious, people asked for more to take home to their places. realizing that the travel will very much spoil the grapes, it was decided to ship them as raisins. and thus raisins are the ones that were offered to the people and eaten. others decided to grow their own vineyards. there's one problem: all they have are seedless raisins. AND that's the big problem. no matter how many tons of raisins they import, they still can't say "I have my OWN supply of GRAPES". and you know why? it's because the head honcho only sells raisins nowadays. any no matter what packaging and labeling one does, if you only got the raisins, there's no way you can claim to sell fresh and juicy grapes because you only have dried and shriveled raisins on hand. so the question is then, how can you get some juicy grapes? and fu bag, the difference between those two groups you mentioned is that the ones still in the org sells raisins passing them off as grapes, and the other DUBIOUS independents (I can include SKH here) say that they have their OWN grapes but the truth is they are raisins. in short, one usually appeals to authority(the soke) and the other sets THEMSELVES up as an authority.