IMA Strategy / Tactics

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by inthespirit, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hey Folks,

    The recent thread on what is IMA and what differentiates it from EMA (not that I really buy in to all of that I and E stuff.. ) got me thinking how would one differentiate the two.

    Speaking from my own experience, the main difference is that in IMA (or that which I have been exposed to) the idea is to leave as little to chance and control the opponent from the outset by blocking their ability to strike you and at the same time creating an opening for you to strike though. This is worked by asserting dominance from the first contact point and gaining the upper hand position where in it is much easier to use your force to pressure the opponent and create openings. Likewise, it appear to me that the majority of the neigong in this style is specifically designed to give you greater potential and more control to enact said strategy.

    Anyhow, I have recently seen some good vids on the youtube which demonstrate some of the strategies/tactics in IMA quite well, so I decided to post them up for folk to see and please feel free to share your own finds and vids too:

    [ame=""]Tai ji theory - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Ma xing pi quan - YouTube[/ame]

    The gent from the above two clips (Paul Rogers) has quite a few more vids on his channel, all good stuff.

    [ame=""]UK Bagua sept2012 - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""][GSL] Lecture 10 - Sparring concepts - YouTube[/ame]

    The gent from the above two clips (Guo Shilei) has quite a few vids such as above online, just search his name and you get a lot of results, though not all with English subs.

    [ame=""]Sanatan Shastarvidiya - Platha [Unarmed Combat] - YouTube[/ame]

    The gent above (Nidar Singh) has some good stuff too, loads more vids on his channel. Though I guess it’s not really IMA as such.
  2. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    When it comes to actual fighting the strategy for most IMAs seems to be to get punched in the face again and again and again.
  3. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Care to elaborate on what experiences have formed your opinion?
  4. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Watching people actually try to use IMAs in fighting competitions and actually fighting a few IMA guys myself.
  5. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Fair enough, not my experience. Obviously, I wouldn't be doing it if it was.

    What do you study?
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    [ame=""]Tai ji theory - YouTube[/ame]

    At 0.36 of this clip, you use your left hand to downward press your opponent's right arm, since you don't control his left arm, he can borrow your force, spin his right arm, and land a right hook punch on your head. To give your opponent pressure without controling his arm is dangerous. When you apply pressure, you want to make sure that your opponent's arms can not give you any trouble.

    The forearm is not a good contact point. The elbow and upper arm are.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  7. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Not my videos, but sure, there is a potential gap there, but it's just a demo.

    Is there much of this type of controlling idea in SC?
  8. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I'll bite on this.

    Attack and defend as one - koyo used to express this a lot - so it depends on whether you think Aikido is JIMA (in my book yes, but in different ways to CIMA.)

    IMA uses (or at least should use) whole body movement to achieve 'attack and defend as one' - though I doubt its expressed in any CIMA classics as such.

    Through some Neikung exercises, the CIMA practitioner can also develop body conditioning to withstand blows.

    The CIMA practitioner should develop a non-transmisssion of intent and an ability to read the opponent's intent; by gauging the relative whole body orientations and centres of gravities e.g. through Pushing Hands. Over time this can develop into deceptive and evasive qualities, but this is not unique to CIMA e.g. good Judokas will not transmit their intent easily through grappling until throwing i.e. the holds have a kind of empty quality to them.

    Where (C)IMA may have a bit more than EMA is when these qualities are brought to bear in more tactical encounters where rythym and timing come into play e.g. in some pushing hands drills - DaLu, 9 Palace Step, a lot of Baguazhang stepping, turning and enytering(single/double-palm changes, swimming dragon). This comes out even further once multiple attackers and weaponary becomes part of the drill - where instant and whole body movement with attack and defend principles have to operate continuosly, fluidly, deceptively, evasivly with excellent rythym and timing.

    The above drills and qualities are all highly tactical and take bucketloads of effort to make millimetres of progress with.

    My 2pence.
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It's better to "press" on your opponent's upper arm (or elbow). This way, his arm is completely useless (he can't borrow your force, spin his arm , and ...). Don't spend too much time on your opponent's forearm.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Agree with this, except for the case of low punch/push, then contact is best slid down from above to the fleshy inner-arm to prevent momentum hitting you hard with power.
  11. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Sounds good, thanks!

    If you have any good vids, please feel free to post. I'm just looking for interesting stuff in this regard.
  12. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This is a 2 man form drill that Colin and Lucia were developing a while back, but I think judges at competitions didn't like it, so I think they have kind of stalled it.

    FWIW, in my mind they could be more evasive i.e. more angular contact in some of the weapon contacts with 7 stars or 9 palace foootwork, but the rythym and timing are not too bad.

    Silk reeling Pushing Hands are also drills where a lot of Ting listening takes shape, mostly from Chen and Wu type lineage TCC as best I know of.

    [ame=""]TwoPersonBroadsword01.MPG - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  13. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Where Aikido is internal is also whole body movement with evasive (but not easily deceptive) timing and rythym and has somewhat more internal locking attack to the central nervous system than CIMA with Qina.

    Aikidokas learn relatively quickly to attack multiple joints at the same time, which paralyses the central nervous system, and to receive these locks by going inside them with internal movement to achieve optimal spinal alignment and countering capability and minimize pain to de-paralyse the central nervous system attack. In my mind this is extremely internal. Daito Ryu Aikijistu folk go even more into the central nervous system attacks but less into evasion.

    CIMA folk tend not to be so good at this aspect.
  14. embra

    embra Valued Member

    In my Wudang TCC, there are boxing drills called Running Thunder Hands, not unlike Jack Dempsey drop-step bridge boxing; used as a way to decoy the opponent with the 1st strike to set them up for the follow-up strike which is the powerfull strike. No vids that I know of.

    These drills are used as way of developing boxing to contact grappliing switches e.g. setup decoy strike, follow-up strike and enter onto weakened opponent to switch to grappling contact.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  15. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Yeah, I got dropped on my head like that by a Wudang fellow before :)

    I'm not a big fan of two man forms, I think you get much more out of a structured non-cooperative drill, but I suppose everything has its place.

    Interesting you mention that Akido stuff, personally I haven't met many Akido folk, but sounds like a good method.
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Free-for-alls with Sabers (even just wooden) are just too dangerous. Plus all these types of drills usually come from set-piece applications, sometimes originating in Classics texts etc i.e. somewhat open to interpretation.

    Some of them get pretty damm complicated when you are defending with 1 Saber (actually normally Bokkens as Daos get chewed to bits) vs 2 Saber opponents and 1 Spear opponent.

    FMA folk also get into rythym and timing in a big way - what they sometimes call the "Flow" - but I doubt they think of it as internal or external. They also get into evasion, but tend to look on it as an advanced concept rather than fundamental.
  17. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Right now wing chun. In past aikido, mma, kickboxing/muay thai, bjj. Even dabbled a little in tai chi but to be honest most of what's in tai chi cannot be used under pressure especially if your opponent has any real skill. 99.9% of the tai chi out there is ineffective IMO.
  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Aikido is a lot more predictable with fully committed attacks than CIMA i.e. there is nothing like Pushing Hands, unless really advanced - which I never got to.
  19. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Would pretty much agree with this.
  20. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Yeah, I've only done basic weapons drills, don't have much experience with it. I have met some good FMA folk though.

    Havent come across many who go from MT/BJJ/MMA to wing chun, usually the other way around. Why such an unorthodox switch? Or what attracted you to wing chun and away from the MT/BJJ/MMA stuff?

    Yeah, a lot of crap Taiji about. Some great people too though.

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