Lots of contention exists with the org itself regarding how rank is awarded, the skill level (as judged against the technical expectations of their own community) of desperate ranks being lower than it should be, nobody being able to agree on what correct technique should be like, arguing over theory and application, snipping and back biting. This sub forum is moderated under a zero tolerance policy due to the levels of fighting and bickering. RP is an experienced practitioner who says learning from sources outside of Japan is almost futile due to systemic issues in the BJK. If you look at orgs such as the Genbukan you can criticise the restrictive patriarchal nature of its structure but the quality control is much higher. And the majortiy of its practitioners appear to be on the same page. I've trained in the Buj for a very short time. I've been around the wider martialarts community in reality and online since my early 20s. You meet see and hear all sorts. If you stick around you'll see what I mean. That aside you might just have a very solid school on your doorstep... Which is a very lucky thing
What he said... However, all the Japanese masters up till now started off as beginners in Japan, as did the people who popularized these arts in the West. It is possible, I and others are living proof of that. Depends again on what you want, what you're willing to sacrifice, and your destiny. You choose your position in ninjutsu, it's a basic tenet called kurai dori. This isn't an art where you'll be spoonfed everything. Anyway, sounds like you're happy with the school you found, so good on you. There's plenty of good information on this forum and others, so taking the time to read some threads here will serve you well.
Hi ceyeb0rg Please note that most of the folk that post here are either (a) deeply committed to this art & as a result have strong views on the best teacher or approach to study or (b) experienced in other arts and judge the bujinkan from that perspective For one reason or another the bujinkan posters here will advocate that you move to Japan (because that's what they've done) or train with Kaceme (because that's what they do). Both are good things to, but they are not the only way, nor do these approaches represent the majority of the bujinkan training I've trained in the Bujinkan for over 26 years and for most of that time I've cross trained in other arts, most notably BJJ. So hopefully I can offer a balanced perspective In the Bujinkan outside of Japan there are many excellent dojos/clubs/academies, but there are also many poor ones (& everything in between) It is best not to judge someone by their grade, rather look at what they do and ask yourself "Is this effective and what I'm looking for?". Attend a few classes and experience the senior guys' technique. If you are completely controlled then probably they know what they're doing I'd also advise that you look at the personality of the teacher and the culture of the club. If you see ego, rigid thinking, controlling mechanisms etc then likely that's covering up an inadequacy of some sort. However, if you see someone who's got more to offer than just a way of moving and a culture that you feel comfortable in then likely you'll be in good hands If you've found someone who's heading in the right direction then jump in and enjoy yourself. In between classes practice the basics and do your research (content put out by Hatsumi-Sensei is always a good place to start) and don't get sucked into the politics or bickering (this forum is not representative of the art/org in that respect)
Exactly, the advice I give has not been followed by the majority of people outside Japan in the wider organization, hence the difference and ability and knowledge when it comes to the arts. I have several decades experience in these and other arts as well, and don't feel nearly as strongly about studying at the source for the other arts I have done. In my case, I don't advise people to follow me at all. I advocate what works best and can be empirically proven as the best way to learn(perhaps only way to learn deeply if judging by results). A bold claim one might suggest, but looking at all of the masters of the arts I'm merely suggesting the path they followed. I can't think of a single teacher who is in the same league that did not follow that path as relates to these arts. But again, some people like McDonald's hamburgers, some like steak, and some prefer Kobe beef. If fast food hamburgers are good enough for you then steak might not be your thing.
So in a 3 page explanation. It is up to you to decide if you find value in your training. With experience and research you will see the physical strengths and weakness in your particular environment. You will either be happy with the dynamics or hate the politics. Everybody has a different experience. As true to the point of consistency. I trained in the Kan a number of years. It is different every dojo, every country and every lineage of a Shihan. It is what it is. I went to Japan and met 9th kyus that could outperform most and 6th dan who I would compare to my 9th kyus. I do think, to a degree this will exist in most arts. It just seems Ninjutsu has the gold medal in it. Then you can get into the whole kan vs indie debate which has a whole new kettle of fish. I'm glad I retired from it a year ago frankly. The scene as a whole is a mess. However PR has great advice and he has devoted his life to the study, so if you was that kind of echelon of training I guess he is right. Otherwise it is up to your own experience.
I'd like to discuss this with you if I may. I hadn't heard this term before so I dug into the roots of the phrase, and when I googled it I found '位取' on a Ninjutsu blog, which I don't believe is correct for 'kurai dori'. It seems backwards. Kurai in Japanese should equate to Qu wei (取位, or take a place/rank) seems correct. Qu wei do ri (取位通り) would then be the proper form, meaning something like 'take your place along the Way'. Do you have a better source for the term? Sorry, brother, just being a script nerd again.
Hatsumi sensei mentions Koto ryu koppojutsu kurai dori at 4:35 of this video, however the section is titled Kamae. I believe the old Quest video for Koto ryu had Kurai Dori as the title of the section on kamae, but it's been awhile since I saw that: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nhyil7xzp0"]Ninjutsu Bujinkan Soke Masaaki Hatsumi Koto Ryu & Koppojutsu + Techniques - YouTube[/ame] Kurai dori means the position you take, therefore it relates to kamae but is much deeper than that. It basically means always putting yourself in the best position and is a very important concept for ninjutsu, not just physically. If people positioned themselves better as relates their training(and life in general), there would be a lot fewer problems in the the Bujindom. Moneywise, it is a lot cheaper in the long run to invest in training correctly the first time, so one doesn't have to try to relearn things later at what cost? The price of a plane ticket, of relocating, of perhaps forgoing some things that may be less important in the long term are reflect kurai dori. Again though, if someone has a taste for hamburger, the juiciest steak in the world will not interest them.
I don't know anything about Ninjutsu, but can't but help but see the posts here. That being said, my question is if the only way to do a valid and serious study of Ninjutsu is to "go to Japan", then why bother? By that I mean you can study pretty demonstrably legit BJJ, Muay Thai without having to move to the "home country" then isn't it way easiest to pick one of these arts instead? I mean if a school 15 minutes away teaches Silat, boxing, JKD or Savate or Kali or whatever, why not study that over the whole "move to Japan" that seem to be necessary to master Ninjutsu? To get to the point, if you live in the west - why not study some other art you can legitimately gain skills in without major travel?
Kacem is legit, has good qc and teaches in the west, if your teacher is one of his students, youll be getting good bjk tuition. Generally the qc with the bjkn is poor, which is why the go to Japan phrase pops up so much.
Kacem is better than most, but still not his teacher. Personally, I wouldn't have continued studying ninjutsu after I first came to Japan and saw the difference if I couldn't have stayed. It is night and day. Sure there are good practitioners outside of Japan, but I didn't want to study something good, I wanted the best. To each his own. When I look at good people out there making mistakes and not getting great, that is why I determine that living in Japan is the only way to get great. Many are happy with mediocre, many more with good, but good isn't great and good can be beaten by better. When I arrived, had I been told I had to leave, I would've definitely quit and started studying something else. But that's just me.
Aside from being in Japan, another thing you need in order to learn these arts in the same progression as the masters is a time machine. The arts aren't taught the same way they were 40 plus years ago when the top teachers/masters were in the process of becoming what they are today. If all one had to do was go to Japan where the best teachers are then a lot of the mess we are seeing today would be getting taken care of as there are more foreigners living in Japan and training there than ever before. For every name someone might bring up as a foreigner having been taught in the correct fashion (maybe we'd only be able to come up with five) we could list far more that weren't (that's a long list). In short, to learn these arts properly, you need to be in Japan. At a specific time. And it would really help you if you were Japanese.
Nobody said it would be easy. However, I disagree that things are as bleak as you describe. Each Shihan teaches differently, the key is finding one who will teach you as close to the old way without some of the things that they later realised weren't necessary or were counterproductive. You are right though, if you don't have a long term personal relationship and just do the dojo hopping tourist thing, you are better off staying in your own country. Doron wasn't Japanese and he did fine. It would help to be Japanese but that isn't a requirement. A long term dedicated struggle is though, and that weeds out most, be they in Japan or not. It was hard then, even harder now, but it is possible.
How would you say these relationships are best cultivated? Is it simply a case of choosing a shihan whose practice's suit your learning, being consistent and showing potential or are there other barriers for those who are Western? Is a master student relationship type situation significantly different from a group class in Japan beyond the universal differences in all arts when being taught one on one? How many students are actually native Japanese and how is the bujinkan viewed in Japan? What makes the transmission in Japan superior? Is it simply that the knowledge possessed by most western shihan and dan ranks is distorted abd/or incomplete?
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjKpTR69kJI"]Something about Bojutsu - Thorsten Schwarz Germany Bujinkan - YouTube[/ame] Yes, it's just that the Western "Shihan" often are demonstrating/teaching/trying to apply/etc. things that are incorrect. They might be slightly off, way off, or dangerously incorrect. Take this video for example, from a person who some would consider a Shihan. He is doing everything wrong from kamae, footwork, transitioning, and other things. Just watching this video is enough to understand that he is clueless about bojutsu, and how power is created in these arts and that anyone he is teaching is progressing further away from the real arts. He was either never taught, or never learned. The relationship is cultivated by showing up regularly, not being a problem(which means understanding what things are considered rude/ignorant/wrong), training outside of class(training doesn't mean just going to a dojo and copying what you see), and being a reliable student to your teacher. This takes time so in each case, the relationship is personal. There are barriers like martial ability, physical capability, attitude, how you two gel, work commitments, and many others that all must be overcome. Being a Westerner doesn't matter as long as you learn how to behave in a way that doesn't cause trouble(this can be tricky however). You can be in a group class and still be taught something totally different from everyone else. There are only a handful of Japanese students in the Bujinkan and the art isn't really thought of in Japan. A few people know of Hatsumi sensei, some like him and some don't, but many who have an opinion of him know nothing about the arts he's inherited.
So what your saying is, the issue with qc, means in the west the signal to noise ratio overall is very poor. Is that a fair assesment to you?
Who decides who becomes a Shihan, if he is seen by some as being a Shihan. That is where the organizational responsibility lies. If the only place where decent training is, is Japan then no one outside of Japan should be able to attain such a level and be authorized to teach. Thus not creating such a mess.
PleaseReality, how did your journey into the takamatsuden begin? what prompted your initial trip to Japan? How did you manage to make the relocation and how did you carve out both a viable life in a new country which allowed you to train and a relationship with an appropriate shihan? Essentially what was your personal journey (in broad strokes) if you don't mind sharing?
So many things about this video that make me cringe... No control at all and even less fluidity. And his move where he strikes with the bo from his back and upside his head, that fishing-like motion looks like it has no power at all and it exposes your whole body for way too long. This is the exact opposite of what bojutsu is supposed to be, no? Please prove me wrong but it feels like he just invented that strike a few minutes before he made the video.
