So I went to my brother in laws house the other night to watch the MMA and then boxing was on afterward. He had a friend of his who is an ok guy, but he knows everything without knowing what he's talking about, i'm sure most of you here know what I mean. Anyway, so it's myself, my BIL and another friend of ours. The combat hapkido part comes into subject because I was having a very hard time with my S-locks. I can do it very easily on someone with smaller wrists or a little larger than my own. One of my instructors is a bigger framed guy so his wrists are big, he also uses an impact wrench for much of his work so he's strong in that area as well. Our friend that was there has done Muay Thai and such in the past so he and I talk martial arts a lot when we all get together for the fights. He also has big wrists like my instructor, so I asked him if I could try the S-lock on him. Same sort of thing. With the bigger wrists I have to step to one side or the other (depending of course on which wrist I am working with) to get that extra torque I need. The know it all guy says, "so what would stop me from kicking you in the nads (used another word) while you were doing that?". I just laughed and said, if you felt someone do it to you who is very good at it, you would be on your knees likely begging for mercy before you could think about kicking anything. Naturally he's a wanna be sort of tough guy who brags about how much weight he USED to lift and this and that. I don't really mind that part, but he's just one of those kinds of guys that you can only stand for about 5-10 minutes at a time. Of course the Hapkido thing got me just sort of laughing because no matter if it's traditional or combat, many of the locks are quite painful as most of you already know who know it or are taking it. Anyway, just wanted to say that for people who had no clue, it's very interesting to hear how they could do this or that while you have some sort of lock on them.
I want to add that I am not some sort of guy who thinks he's an expert at this at all... but I do know what these moves feel like which is why ignorance is bliss.
This reminds me of an experience I had in high school. Me and a couple guys (I was the only martial artist, but they where very interested so we often talked about martial arts and my experiences and their thoughts). I was showing a guy something, I don't remember exactly what and he said the same thing. "What if I just kick you in the nads?" I tried explaining that he probably couldn't but eventually I had to dispel his disbelief by saying "try". We where friendly so it wasn't a standoffish situation but he left with a greater appreciation for the fact that if there where such a simple solution, martial artists would know it.
This is a "Hapkido Geek" answer, but I think a more nuanced and realistic answer is that if he kicks you in the groin as you are putting on the lock, then your lock will not work. However, S-locks work by rotating the opponents lower arm clockwise (towards his body). This causes his weight to collapse through his knees and unbalances his torso so that he is unable to kick. If your opponent kicks before the lock is on, and you are standing in front of him then I can assure you will be kicked. There are several ways to avoid this: A.) hit him first, and then do the lock before he recovers B.) just be faster, or... C.) change your angle as you make contact so that you are standing to his side, (BUT see below...) Also, the main reason why beginners have trouble with this lock is because the angle of the rotation is not directly in line with your opponents center line. To correct this, imagine that his wrist is a spool and there is a thread connected to his center (hips). I tell my students that in order to be able to execute this lock, you must have the same feeling as winding a thread around the spool at an angle exactly perpendicular to the ground. If you are successful against people with smaller wrists, but not bigger ones, it is probably because you are bracing the wrist joints by virtue of your size differential. Remember that when you practice hapkido techniques with compliant partners in the dojang, it is not like applying them in live practice. The numbered sets you are learning are only like one-step sparring. In application, it is best to try to break your opponents balance or posture, rather than relying on pain compliance. I remember one time as a brown belt, I executed a perfect cross wrist s-lock in free sparring as my opponent grabbed my wrist with the intention of trapping and striking over the top. It worked and I brought him down before the strike hit me. Later on in the practice I tried it again and ended up with a bloody face- so no technique works 100% of the time. (One other thing- if your instructor tells you that these techniques are too dangerous for live practice, quit your school).
It seems that if I am working... say from a cross wrist grab in which his right hand has my right wrist, I take a half step to the left to get that torque that I need... it seems to work much better on people with bigger wrists, though not perfectly. I am still trying to work on that technique. I want it absolutely perfect though. I don't want to have to step to the side if the lock is a straight ahead type move. If I have to and that makes it work then that's ok, but i'll get it eventually. Thanks for your input... i'll study what you have written several times and try to piece it together.
Also, for that particular lock, make sure that your thumb is tucked in against your fingers, not wrapping around your wrist or the lock will not work. To fudge the right angel, shake your wrist back and forth. This brings the correct angle into play without having to be so precise. HOWEVER, please do this to your partner slowly, as it is very hard your opponents wrist. Feel free to reply directly, or on the thread if you need clarification or have questions. Good luck! This is a difficult lock to get, but if you keep practicing, it will just click one day. EDIT - after re-reading your last post, I think it is likely that the rotation of you lock is aimed at a downward left angle, rather than at you partners core. So...try rotating your right hand counter clockwise that the tips of your fingers (on your right hand are pulling towards your center. My guess is that they are aiming (pulling) off to behind you on the left side.
I know how you feel, there are always these guys who say, what if I just kicked you in the nuts while you're doing X lock. In my case, my guillotine. I was telling a friend how much I like guillotines when they try to do a double leg takedown. And this friend that I talk to gets in a couple street fights and does some shaolin kung fu so we talk about martial arts a lot. He said, in that position, you can get hit in the nuts with a knee. (He is atrocious at his ground game, and rarely ever goes for it, and when he does, he tries to get on his feet, so grappling isn't very present in his current repertoire. He likes his stand up, and hes pretty good at it too.) Then he even says I bet you couldn't even get me in a guillotine. When people go for the double leg take down, I like to do a half kind of sprawl and check them with a hand in the middle of the back on the spine, more to just stop them not so much to injure. So when he came for the take down I checked the back, and it caused his head to move up a little bit, giving my arm a little wiggle room to move in for the guillotine hand position, then got into a full guard, with his head still in place. Started thrashing about and attempting his knee to the groin, all it hits is tail bone, and butt cheek, which hurt to an extent, but not the paralyzing power of getting hit in the nuts. Then he starts trying to punch the ribs and the face, but its kind of hard to punch the face especially if you're leaning back. EDIT: I could be wrong about the nomenclature of the positions so correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't down anyone's art when I haven't done it. I can't say what does what if I've never felt it... hence my amusement at this guys comment and your friends above as well. Some people may be able to fight, and even someone who somewhat knows hapkido for instance can still perform certain locks, but there is nothing like learning and using the correct technique. I can say from experience that if I tried to kick on of my instructors in the nads, even the ones who aren't black belts, they could have me locked and on my knees or my toes to where the kick would either be non existent, or have little to nothing on it. As the title says though... ignorance is indeed bliss.
Yeah, I think I know what you mean, I am going to class tomorrow (now today) and then Wednesday, so I will work with my instructor to try to get it perfected... or better at the very least.
I hear what you are saying but don't put your instructors on a pedestal and recognize early in your training that they are human. They CAN be "kicked in the nads" and they will make mistakes too. That's not a bad thing just be careful about talking in absolutes. Fwiw - I used to think the same about some old instructors too and then I grew up.
I don't put them high on pedestals I don't think. It's a matter of respect. Anything can happen to anyone, i'm simply saying that if you get the correct lock on someone, much of the time, they aren't going to be doing much of anything. I've tried myself to see if I could get out of one or what I could do and while my instructors have about 30+ years of experience over me, I know there is no such thing as superman.
This is the important part - your friend is clearly overtstating his case, but if someone does not want a lock to be applied it won't be unless you have either "softened" or "distracted" them in some way. Many people mistake practicing a lock with how it is applied combatively - your friend is one. If i am locking you then i have already hit you or stunned you enough to give me the "window". Against spmeone who is "up for it" that lock isn;t going to fly...but then they aren;t designed for that
Hannibal is right. Hell, I'd be tempted to say "my plan was to kick you in the jumblies first. THEN apply the lock." That said, SiB, I think you need to avoid the temptation to be too dismissive. Regardless of the spirit in which it was said, it's a valid point. As martial arts students, we tend to get wrapped up in how things work in class. And forget how much more random things can be with someone who hasn't spent months or years being indoctrinated the same way. Many an experienced proponent has been at least embarrassed (and sometimes worse) by some newb who's just doing what seems right in the moment. I don't think it's enough to say "if my teacher did this, you'd be incapacitated before you knew it." Getting kicked in the groin IS a real threat. And your teacher probably has a technical answer to this "What If" question. But be careful about such dismissive answers as "you'd never get the chance."
well no, each lock always starts with a distraction first of course. I'm just pointing out that someone who has never had a painful joint lock applied to them doesn't really have any idea about what they would/could do or not do. I am not fast with most of my locks yet and don't want to be. I want to be perfect in my technique before having that flowing motion and then building up speed. I'm much more interested in the technical side rather than what some blow hard claims he could do. The S-lock (as i'm sure you know) can still be applied while stepping to the side and out of range of a groin strike... besides as many have said here.. a groin strike in the heat of the moment isn't always nearly as effective as most think. I don't really let it bother me... like I said, my only real point is that it's easy to run your mouth until you get in with someone who knows their stuff. I wouldn't run my mouth to an experienced boxer, grappler, etc etc when I've never taken it and have no idea how a lot of it works. That would just be ... well ignorance. Part of my point is that he's the kind of guy who no matter WHAT you say or are talking about ... he knows it.. he knows more than you. We all watch boxing or MMA or whatever and he's just like "what doesn't this guy punch more?" or something when he clearly has no clue what he's talking about. I just can't stand a know it all.
it's an interesting viewpoint. while i don't think a distraction is always necessary in the real world, it makes sense to use one if the opportunity to grab and twist or getting grabbed and twisting isn't immediately there. joint-locking is opportunistic in a dynamic environment. however, i've not run across a school that teaches a distraction as part of the fundamental aspect of joint locks. when first learning a technique, you have to learn the technique itself before additional added concepts.
