if you dont belive.. just read and open your imaginless minds

Hi Dave
Sekiya shihan who stayed with me for a couple of months was a master of Kashima and Katori shinto ryu as well as a 6th dan Aikido and Chba shihan's father in law. Told me that O Sensei would invite masters of swordschools to demonstrate their arts and while some of his students trained with them he would observe. He would then say that he had learned this or that and would integrate it into his own personal study. Sekiya also said (and showed me) that aikido was based not on sword techniques but on sword principles such as ki ken tai ichi spirit technique and body as one or ken chu tai attack and defence as one. At O Sensei's level to master one art is to understand all others.
Incidently one of the first demonstrations of aikido that I attended was given by Noro shihan in the early sixties and advertised as aikido the noble art of the samurai. Also when I first saw aikido it was demonstrated by Kenshiro Abe when we asked for instruction he said no that aikido was a samurai art and not for sport.

Koyo

 

Thanks Bill,

Your first paragraph confirms what makes a whole lot of sense to me. Indeed I fully appreciate the ken principles underpinning the foundation of our art and obviously, see that aikido isn't a sword art per se.

In your second paragraph you comment on statements made by both Noro and Abbe (each highly respected shihan in their own right) Far be it for me to be arrogant enough to directly contradict their sentiments (can you tell there's a "but" coming?) "But"... From a purely historical perspective; no art created in Japan after the Meiji Restoration can be considered, even named a "Samurai art" because the laws relating to the class structure of Japan forebode the Samurai class. Essentially Aikido cannot be accurately or historically (factually) referred to as a Samurai Art (because it was created post Meiji Restoration {1878 if my memory is correct}), and; because of the abolition of the Samurai class structure during said period, no one could legally claim they were "Samurai" thus; Aikido cannot be described as such.

Contextually, aikido has links with Koryu arts, perhaps those *some* previously studied by the samurai classes, it is not however accurate to describe aikido as a samurai system or art. I would hazard a suggestion that both Noro Masamichi and Abbe Kenshiro were speaking with a fair amount of poetic licence. Indeed I think it's fair to point out that although Ueshiba O-Sensei's father's family (Grandfather, if my memory serves me correctly) were of Samurai stock, it does not directly correlate that anyone else in the family was entitled to claim that class, add the fact the class was abolished five years before Ueshiba Moritaka was born means; the art of Aikido wasn't even created by Samurai.

Kind regards as always

 

IMHO, Dave good points but without the context of what is meant by "samurai art" it isn't going to change anyone's mind. My mother's side of the family traces back to samurai blood, my father's side traces back 800 years to a son of the Japanese emperor. So at least our family trees say it is so.

There are samurai today, not equal to samurai of three hundred years ago, I would call them modern day samurai. One of the questions of this thread elluded to the question as to whether or not Aikido could be an evolution of samurai practices from hundreds of years ago.

I think the only answer is to find a modern day samurai and see what they practice. Well they would not be samurai in title, but in spirit and blood line (although blood line is a relative term).

Nevertheless, whether or not they can prove to others that they are truly samurai is an interesting tangent that I cannot answer. I can say, however, that there is still the spirit and feeling of the samurai in Japanese families, at least in some.

 

thank you all for this great discussion.. some people think i am a "troll" others think that cold be a relation between aiki and ninpo. ok =) but the easyest way i can explain myself is by saying this...

we have 2 groups of Martial arts. ( we are suposing dont go insane again )...
and these 2 groups are.. atack tecns. and Defense tecncs. ( SUPOSING )..

the closest marcial art of ninjutsu and the line of samurai/ninja wars is TAIJUTSU/NINJUTSO and AIKIDO.... not comparede too other marcial arts LIKE MUAY THAI, TaeKwondo, Karate, also Kendo ( this in my prespective have atack tecncs.) so my this line of thinking.. we can assume that there is a relation. and thats why i am making this post.

 

Sorry mate but I'll think you'll find there's no such thing as "Samurai" even in Japan. Its a status which no longer legally exists.

Yes families today may link their lineage back to nobility of old Japan but that does not entitle them to use the term to day. People may associate themselves with their past and the connections to samurai family (and rightly so) but this is purely historical association and has no formal or legal status within Japanese society

Remember with the abolition of the Samurai, this removed those individuals the rights associated with that status, that stands to this day. There is no such thing as a modern samurai in any context.

Regards

 

Listen mate.. So far you've been entirely non substantive (you haven't proved your point) with the suggestions you've made.

You say there's a connection between Ninjutsu and Aikido, you attempt to directly link Ninpo and Aikido together as if they were CLOSELY related.

Listen to people who know about the history of Aikido... Aikido is NOT related in any way to Ninpo, yes they may have similar ideologies but then as I've been at pains to point out three times now, the principles of AI & KI have been in existence longer than God's dog (and that's a bloody long time) so, unless you can come up with some form of evidence which directly links a Koryu method with an art only formally recognised in the 1940's, you're urinating in the wrong direction, or barking up the wrong tree to coin another typical British saying.

Your attempt to link samurai (which was a classification of status) which Ninjutsu (which is a very old martial method) together with Aikido (which is neither old nor associated with battlefield arts of feudal Japan) is plainly tenuous (weak)

Regards

 

The context is simple..

By referring to a martial system as a "Samurai art" it must..

1, Have been studied by those legitimately entitled to be called Samurai.
2, The art its self must have been created well before the Meiji Restoration.
3, Ideally been used in battle and the waza tested in a real combative environment.

Whilst that list isn't intended to be exhaustive, it does set out some clear definitions.

As I said earlier, there's no Samurai classification in Japan today, not for some 130 years; you therefore cannot expect any discussion about Samurai, their lineage (past or present) or the systems/strategies of war they studied to have any modern (post 1876) context.

Remember what the term "Samurai" actually means.

Regards

 

I have been reading this post with interest. To throw something in the melting pot;
I am presently studying for my orange belt, i am learning third form. Here i am studying defence from having my partner stop me drawing a sword and punching me in the face. I am studying this open hand, and also with a bokken.
This could be a tentative link to a 'samurai art' . Or where have these techniques come from?
I do however understand O'sensei studied various forms of jujutsu, fencing, and spear fighting and would have drawn upon these experiances.

 

As an extra to the above i wrote, please browse this link.
http://www.aikido-yoshinkai.org/AikidoHistory.htm

 

This also got more me doing some more research. A day off work, bored.
well, i tried to look up about Samurai unarmed combat and found an article that talked about Yawara. I then started to research this, and found this:
http://www.graeagle.com/feather/yawara.html
which then led to this;
http://www.graeagle.com/feather/history.html
whats this thread about again?

 

Hi Macker... The simple explanation to your question is summed up in one word... "Influences"

Aikido is influenced by several older arts but because those influences are, just that, I cannot see how aikido can be a close relative of anything samurai in orientation. A; it’s a Gendai system thus B; no Samurai ever studied it.

One always has to remind oneself exactly what aiki ken and jo are; they are tools to improve aiki taiso, nothing else.

: An improvement in understanding theoretical and physical principles of how and why *empty hand* techniques work. Aikido is not a weapons system it is an empty hand art which uses the bokken (not sword) and jo (not yari or juken) to reinforce taiso principles.

Ask yourself when was the last time your "Aikido" sensei demonstrated the correct way to perform the following actions with his Nihonto during your aikido class.

Nukitsuki, Kirioshi, Chiburi (of any method) Noto ?

If you were learning the basis of sword use, and performing that skill with bokuto then at some time you would need to progress to using a sword, after all the sword formed the mainstay of the samurai (be it wakazashi or katana).

In aikido, yes the bokuto represents the Japanese sword but its representation exists as a classical training aide, you strike with bokuto, not cut; and although there are JSA students who might argue my last comment, as a sword and aikido practitioner, I can assure you there are few aikido instructors who teach their students how to "cut" with bokuto using the same principles as with Nihonto.

Indeed, talk to students of Jodo and they will attest that aiki-jo bears little resemblance to koryu Jo arts.

As I said in an earlier post, it is very easy to associate Samurai culture and in part, martial aspects to many activities indigenous to Japan (Aikido included) but; Aikido is not a samurai art.

You mentioned earlier about the application of sword drawing (or the prevention there of) Here you have a classic example of direct older influences in 'modern' aikido. Why does tenkan, tenshin, omote, ura exist ? One possible theory is that a swordsman is able to move in any one of the aforementioned ways or directions whilst bringing to bear his sword against an opponent. True enough, I know as a sword user that all of the above can be done, that said almost identical movements can be made with the jo and of course with empty hand.

So which came first ? Which influences the other ? What arts (specifically) are these applications from ? The truth is no one fully, conclusively knows.

Daito Ryu, now there's a complex debate. It is suggested by some that Daito Ryu isn't actually a Koryu art, some equally suggest that Daito Ryu was created/systemised by Takeda Sokaku himself, if this is the case (and I'm in no position to prove that BTW) this would mean; that DRAJJ has no connections with what might otherwise be known as a "battlefield" art because it would be way to new to have existed during Japan's feudal period.

Yes aikido has very distant connections to older martial systems, Yes the founder of aikido was widely accepted as one of Japan’s foremost Budoka. Yes there is evidence that the founder studied Koryu however; there is no direct correlation between what he studied (Koryu) and what we do today (Gendai) Add in to the equation the fact that aikido taught by the founder 60 years ago has developed ten fold, has been systemised, named and technically speaking is far more advanced than before. Further add to this; the fact that there are less Japanese influenced / recognised organisations teaching world wide, than those with direct connections with their style respective Hombu; what you have is potential shifts in quality, authenticity, ideology and philosophy. IMHO there’s no way Aikido can be so closely connected to “samurai” as the original poster suggests.

Regards

 

thank you all again.. i am getting now some conclusions about akido and ninjutsu, diferente but brothers.. they have the same principles of hapynes, peace and relation betwen man and the choice of nature. the great thing is that they are arts of mind and body. aikido is not 70/80 years old of age. it is impossible have so much in a few decads.

 

So what do you know about Ninjutsu? As I'm still waiting for you to answer my previous questions?

Thank you

 

The term AIKIDO was formally recognised by the Japanese Ministry of Education in 1942. Accept it. Its FACT.

Whilst Ueshiba O-Sensei was skilled in several budo; the Aikido known to us today is a very modern system, an art which has evolved greatly since it was first introduced to the world outside Japan.

 

This is one of those false logic situations:

I use a Bokken, Samurai used Bokkens therefore i'm doing what they are doing.

or

I can swim, fish can swim therefore I am a fish.