if you dont belive.. just read and open your imaginless minds

Paku would you please answer this:

 

He was a student of the family line of Kukishin-ryu for over 40 years. He was a menkyo shihan in the system.

For the most part, yes, but he also had Chuden Kirigami Menjo in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu under Tozawa Tokusaburo, and some elements of the ryuha are prevalent in certain parts of aikido waza.

 

Gunyo Kogusoku said:-

Thank you for providing the extra information.

 

This thread is a prime example of why I tell people in Beginners they can't learn from a web site and should find themselves a decent teacher instead.

Web sites advertising martial arts schools exist for one primary reason. To sell the school and the system. It's an extended advertisment designed to draw in potential students. Some of those adverts are embelished or exadurated or just plain wrong for the sake of making the sale.

Don't beleive everything you read on a web site. Get down to a dojo, get on the mat and train.

 

It’s important to make a differentiation between what arts the founder studied and those which he used to influence the aikido we know today. I think you'll find even the most seasoned Aikido historians such as Stan Prannin and Ellis Amdor will fail to definitively draw a conclusion.

One might suggest that all of the arts the founder studied have in some way been integrated; however small those influences may or may not be but, I would argue that if this was indeed the case why are these influences (especially the sword arts) not more readily obvious to seasoned sword practitioners, in the same way perhaps, that a Daito Ryu exponent can clearly see the connections with their art and that of Aikido ?

The crux IMHO is that although the jutsu applications which influence present day aikido are fairly easy to recognise and associate with systems such as DRAJJ, the weapons aspects are far removed from any system the founder was a student of, indeed the entire purpose of both aiki-ken and jo is not for the application of sword and stick, but the development of taiso, these ideals are entirely at the opposite ends of the "use of" scale for those particular weapons.

Many techniques and applications clearly have sword art, kansetsu and nage waza gensoku behind them however; to simply assume because those principles of perhaps older technical applications exist in what we do today, result in a direct link to Koryu (Old School/Systems) which may have existed pre Meiji Restoration, as suggested by our pubescent poster pakau, is a bit tenuous.

Just because the founder held high skills in a number of classical systems, doesn't automatically mean each of those respective systems are represented in any demonstrable form in modern aikido, as such, I cannot see how Aikido can be described as a "...samurai training evolution" as suggested by pakau in one of his earlier attempts at dialogue. Indeed should we all assume that our stick and bokuto skills are directly connected to the schools of kenjutsu, jo, jukendo, yarijutsu the founder studied? I think that would be foolish. Equally foolish would be to assume that every aikido organisation teaches a consistent set of given skills within ANY aspect of the art thus, I simply cannot correlate pakau's conclusions.

Regards

 

Indeed.

The deep cultural and social connections of Japanese society with budo in general means that at some point we could associate the Samurai class with many fighting arts and activities, indeed Karate isn't commonly associated with the nobility of Japan however, Gichin Funakoshi had many wealthy and 'well-to-do' students who; only a few short years earlier, might other wise be considered within the Samurai system yet, it would be inaccurate to describe Shotokan Karate-do with either the Samurai class or Bushido.

Wearing hakama and carrying a sword (in terms of aikido) a Samurai does not make.

Finally I'd like to take issue with the arrogant nature of the thread.

I find this approach to online debating quite amusing simply because in this case, pakua, wishes to debate a particular topic yet attacks the very people, for whom he/she has little or no prior interaction with on these forums, the very same people who inevitably he/she expects dialogue with. Petty poor behaviour, not to mention a good way to make fiends and influence people.... Not

Additionally given the poster's choice of online alias, I must assume (perhaps wrongly) that he/she is interested or even studies the art of "Pakua" however, if the following two images taken from www.pakua.org are anything to judge the arts sword skills by, I think you may be in need of a little rethink.

​

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Regards

 

Please Dave, make it go away!!!!

 

You know what the sad thing is, I have actually learned quite a bit in this thread.

Just not from the original poster.

 

Thank you Dave, that was quite informative. Like wry, I've learned something too. Whether I wanted to or not

I had thought about closing this one as soon as I saw it, knowing it was started because I closed the one in Ninjutsu. However, seeing the direction the topic took, I thought otherwise. Precisely because I was learning something new.

And Pakua, please, please, please, if a thread is closed do not reopen it somewhere else under a different name. Just tends to tick me off. If you want to learn something, fine. But before you go posting a link to a site, just because you feel that it proves something, do a little more research. You might learn something worth knowing.

I studied aikido for a short while ( 6 months in Abilene TX, 25 years ago, and 1 year in Saudi Arabia 5 years ago). No idea which school, Abilene was too long ago and those things didn't interest me at the time. Saudi Arabia, because there was no Bujinkan Dojo or other practitioners there at the time. The instructors English was okay, but not great. He was (claimed to be) the Morrocan Grand National Champion (at what, I'm not sure). But it looked like Aikido that I remembered and gave me a chance to practice my ukemi on a regular basis. That and there are similarities in the movements, just not in the execution. That make sense? What he taught, you took the uke to a safe place at the end of a throw or takedown. What I was taught is for me to get to a safe place and if I can put something in my opponents way that will further disable/injure then that was cool.

But, I can tell you, Aikido is not Ninjutsu. Nope. Not today and not yesterday and probably not tomorrow either.

 

Steve..

You of all people (being a blue eyed samurai yourself) should know that having to look at krappy kamae and poor tenouchi is penance for life's misdemeanours (lol)

Now go to the dojo and gimme 500 saburi chokugiri

Regards

 

I'd like to expand on the issue of the term "aiki" and its relationship with the founder of aikido.

Firstly I think it’s very important to remember that the principles of "ai" and "ki" were in existence long before the founder ever walked this earth or considered coining the term "aiki" in relation to his budo.

Many martial arts can easily associate ai ki gensoku within their practice, indeed I'd expect Ninjutsu to be no different in this respect thus, to read Dr. Hatsumi discuss aiki principles doesn't surprise me in the slightest. That doesn't mean he’s specifically discussing or attempting to relate to "Aikido" - the way of M. Ueshiba although, given Ueshiba's very deep understanding of the subject and his accreditation as being the founder of the most widely known "aiki" art, I see why people may automatically assume otherwise.

Here's a thought for pakua to contemplate.

Connect the aiki aspects (both physical and philosophical) of aikido with ninpo rather than try to connect aikido with samurai. Then we'll have an interesting debate

Regards

 

Ninpo, and particularly what I have seen of Shinobi, have technique very similar to aikijutsu. However, they do not resemble as closely technique found in Aikido IME.

I've found differences, maybe because of philosophical differences, that could be key to this discussion or maybe they are nothing. Either way, I would describe these Aikijutsu, Ninpo, Shinobi techniques to be limited. Or more generally that "jutsu" techniques are limited.

Now before anyone takes too much offense, what I mean by limited is not a bad thing. I am not saying they are inferior or ineffective, in fact they can be complex and effective. What I mean by limited is that they are highly specialized.

Many "jutsu" techniques are refined so much that they only work in a particular situation. If one setups up that situation or finds they are in that situation, then these techniques can be highly effective and practical. "Jutsu" could be viewed as the training in specific methods and strategies of counterattack based on a set of principles and strategies.

However, IMHO, Uyeshiba Sensei (O'Sensei) transformed these "jutsu" into an art of "do". I believe that "do" is less concerned with specialized technique and instead tries to build up the entire body as a weapon of combat.

So instead of specialized technique for counterattack based on the principle of aiki, Aikido becomes an art based upon the total coordination of one's own reaction to an aggression with the aggressor's own power of attack. In other words, Aikido technique and philosophy is not restricted to the purpose of counterattack by the principle of aiki but one is now free to use ANY principles.

Aikido is not like the "jutsu" arts that came before even if they share similar technique.

The difference is that since a "do" art is to transform the entire body into a weapon of combat instead of learning specific methods of counterattack, one who studies under the philosophy of "do" need not concern themselves as much with the particular strategy of the opponent(s).

 

http://www.pakua.org/

Am I missing something here? If this is a Chinese art why are they wearing Japanese clothes? I have only seen flying kicks like that in TKD (I could well be wrong on this one).

 

well i've seen circular movements but i've never seen the run around your attacker until they get dizzy technique

http://www.pakua.org/martialarts/Chuan/Chuan3.mpg

 

is this a running gag?

 

I'm convinced pakau (the forum poster) is a Bullshido troll and isn't worth further bandwidth.