i apologize for any misinterpretations of my postings. it's not very often someone learns just ba gua without experience in hsing-i or tai chi.
With all due respect, this is simply not true. These 3 arts are commonly referred to as China's big three internal body boxing styles, and while they all utilize the similar internal principles, their mindset, and way of attacking/defending, are unique to each art. Xingyi is very linear, direct and aggressive in it's mindset/approach - unlike Bagua which is circular/evasive or Taiji - blending/sticking/following. Xingyi's movements are based on the spear and was created for the battlefiend (circa. 1600) long before Bagua even existed. It is primarily a striking art although it does contain some kicks and ground work. It's quick, powerful, fast and explosive - like a mortar round or cannon going off. D.
What Devere has stated is public knowledge and nothing that would need varifying from individual teachers... it's standard fact.
I understand that the three arts (Taiji, Hsing I and Ba Gua) are linked in that they are thought of as the main internal arts. What are they actually like to perform in practice though? By that I mean if you were studying all three, or were proficient (on some level) in all three, do they work well together? The reason I ask is twofold. Firstly I will be commencing my own study of Taiji in the new year, and may wish to expand into these other arts. If they do blend in well, this is very exciting for me. Secondly DeVere mentions that the arts have their own unique styles (linear, direct and agressive for Hsing I, circular/evasive for Ba Gua, and blending/sticking/following for Taiji) which on face value appear to be conflicting. Maybe this fits in well with the overall yin/yang thing? Also it is of course interesting to have various styles at ones command.
Keith1892-- Bagua and Hsing I were traditionally taught together, and as different schools blended together, certain bagua styles became a sort of hybrid of all the internal arts, but this is a diluting of the original art form-- bagua's circular philosophy of motion is based on the I Ching's 8 changes-- hence "8 triagram palm. Hsing I is based on the animal styles, and has a completely different philosophy of movement. While the styles have been mixed in many schools, it is valuable to remember that bagua and hsing I are their own distinct arts so that we can preserve both styles.
Shade, There are many other internal styles that are indoor and remain hidden, or those that are lost to the sands of time. There is a fourth internal art not mentioned above which is Liu He Ba Fa (Six Harmonies, Eight Methods). Out of the four mentioned above it is interesting to note that Hsing I and Liu He Ba Fa are actually the oldest. Hsing I, it is often said, is the most external of the four styles with Taijiquan being the most internal. Both Baguazhang and Liu He Ba Fa are somewhere inbetween. Having said that, there is a 5th style, but this is an unknown indoor art which I am currently a student of called, Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung, or Continuously Circulating One Breath Palm. I would say that Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Liu He Ba Fa are closer in principle, technique and application than Hsing I is. Hsing I would be closer in nature to Chen Style Taijiquan, in some, but not all ways. Ofcourse Baguazhang employs different methods of achieving it ends and aims to Taijiquan and Liu He Ba Fa, as do the latter two in relation to the former. None are the same and yet all are the same, if that makes sense. I would say that you will most likely find Baguazhang a very nice companion art to Taijiquan, but this depends on your intent and which art fits your personal goals later on. It is not recommended to attempt all three however and once you begin one art you'll see how keeping track of two is a full time job in and of itself. Essentially you will find that the methods of Taiji, Baguazhang and Liu He Ba Fa particularly, overlap in certain applications and this is where we begin to see in higher levels of practice the nexus point where all these arts blend together and are clearly of a similar family. All these arts use circular power and spiralling power apart from Hsing I which is far more direct and uses the Creation/Destruction cycle of Chinese 5 Element theory as it's template. I am of the opinion that Hsing I is more in the Baiji and Chen area than in the Taiji Baguzhang and Liu He Ba Fa area, but this is only my personal opinion based on my own research and observations. Any two of the above will keep you busy for a lifetime. As to what they are like in performance? You'll have to actually perform them to know because describing it is pretty difficult, you really have to feel them, perform them, to know them. A way to get an idea though is go to www.martialartsmart.com, go to the video's section and download the brief clips of various styles and systems. This should give you a very basic idea of what your looking at when discussing these various arts. Best, Syd
Thanks Syd. The last three posters pretty much summed it up. And the info I provided is basic knowledge that can be found in any Xingyi or internal arts book. It's also from personal experience and endless reading and research. I also have an indepth web site on the art with tons of info: emptyFlower I was taught by Gong Zhongxiang, a student of Zhu Guiting, student of Li Cunyi. Here's some vids, Shade. Xingyi form - not sure what form it is, but you can see many of xingyi's animals in it such as Tiger, Snake and Horse. http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/hsingyform.mov Splitting Fist (xingyi's signature form): http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/Splitting.movXingyi form
Syd, as usual a font of fantastic knowledge Just out of curiosity how long have you been studying Taiji? DeVere, thanks for the links. Your own site is superb (both the martial arts one (which has some great links in there also) and your main site).
DeVere - your site is excellent. I have been going back to it for months now (where did you get the amazing clips from??) Keep it up. We need more skilled people promoting the cause of IMA to the world!
devere, you seem quite knowledgable in the internal arts...but do you see what i'm saying when i say that bagua has hsing i & tai chi elements? not to be confused with the 5 elements of hsing-i but with the principles? i may be wrong i would like other people's opinions. obviously my teacher would be the best person to talk to about this but i am going by what he has told me, however, i may have either misinterpreted a few things or have stated them wrong...if i did i am sorry but i do remember something as to how they are connected in a way. syd, do you practice water boxing? that is a very mysterious art that i heard was somewhat similar to bajiquan, is that true? also, what arts are you currently pracitcing under what teacher?
Shade, I've been actively practicing Taijiquan for about 3 years with allot of gaps in between. I spent about 5 years mentally practicing Taiji philosophically, if that makes any sense, before I started any training... now I try and do both. I'm pretty much a beginner. Keith, No I don't practice Liu He Ba Fa but my teacher used to but now only teaches Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung as he believes it to be a superior art to LHBF. I don't think Liu He Ba Fa and Baiji are similar at all but then there are varying styles and influences of LHBF. Some systems of LHBF have a distinct Hsing I influence, others a Taiji or Bagua influence. It is the kind of art that is easily influenced by the other arts your train in. Currently I am only training under one teacher. He is the one who teaches Wun Yuen. In the 60's he was a Choy Lay Fut fighter in Thailand and one of the 5 Tigers of Canton. Very few fighters did well in Thailand in the old days against the Thai fighters, but the Choy Lay Fut guys did and my teacher was one of them. Having said that though I heard recently that a Taiji fighter in Thailand was shot dead in China Town because he defeated a Thai Boxer. It doesn't give you much impetus to go to a place like that and do well if thats the result. In regards to Taijiquan, I used to train under Keith Brown who is the WTBA's highest graded instructor but my location changed and I pretty much train alone these days and with a motley group of Fajing bandits... NZric is one of them. Best, Syd 200th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Syd, that's amazing that your teacher is a Choy Lay Fut fighter that was successful in Thailand. My old Muay Thai instructor always told us stories about those kinds of fights & said that the Choy lay Fut fighters were not treated with much respect. also, i don't know if you're familiar with san shou but from what i was told by my wushu teacher, the san shou fighters from china compete with thai fighters & have traditionally beaten them every year. however, now it's getting closer b/c the thai fighters are picking up on the san shou techniques that beat them. i dont' know, i thought i would just stick that in there. if you're really into the internal arts, read up on little nine heaven, it's awesome. www.littlenineheaven.com check it out
Thank you nzric and Shade - when I first started training kungfu I couldn't find many books on xingyi, let alone on the net. So I went sorta nuts and created the site for people that may have never heard of the art. The clips were contributed to the site, as well as a lot of the training info in the CRUSHING section by martial arts writers and/or teachers. Much of it written for the site itself. Keith, as I stated in my previous post, yes all 3 arts do have similar internal principles - that's why they get lumped together into one "family." Perhaps some teachers teach a hybrid systm and there is a style called Xingi-Bagua, but the again, basic xingyi principles are different than bagua principles. Xingyi hollows the chest, rolls the tailbone under, utilizes 70/30 weight distribution, the arms/hands remain on the centerline (for the most part), etc - Bagua is different. Maybe I'm not getting by what you mean by "principles..." Xingyi and Bagua were often taught together, but we're talking about martial artists who for them this was their life - they were mercenaries, body gaurds or whatever. In this day and age, and with the invention of a little thing called gunpower, it's just not practical. Either way, I'd recommend sticking with one cause like Syd said, one will keep you busy a lifetime!
Keith, that's amazing that your teacher is a Choy Lay Fut fighter that was successful in Thailand. He's not a Choy Lay Fut fighter anymore. Infact he gave it away due to an injury in the early 60's and went to see a Traditional Chinese Doctor who was also an internal arts master. This is when he began Liu He Ba Fa and then later was taught Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung. My old Muay Thai instructor always told us stories about those kinds of fights & said that the Choy lay Fut fighters were not treated with much respect. Being treated with respect and being effective are slightly different things. There were 5 well known Choy Lay Fut fighters in Asia and my teacher was one of them. Obviously there may have been other Choy Lay Futters who didn't do so well, just as there would have been Thai Boxers who lost out to Choy Lay Futters. It is well documented, and I have two seperate books on multiple styles of Kung Fu, that Choy Lay Fut was known for defeating Thai boxers and was a premiere style in the Asian region. Your teacher may be unaware of the 5 Tigers of Canton or perhaps he was misinformed himself. You can also see that an outside style defeating the native style of a country is going to be VERY political. I don't think Thai people are ever going to want to openly admit that their own national style could be bettered. The case of the recently shot Taiji fighter is a perfect example. As to other arts like 9 heavens, I'll look out for it, but generally I've got my hands full with Taijiquan and Wun Yuen as it stands! Best, Syd
Congrats on 200th post Syd. this made me smile and has given me an image of you running around in bandana's robbing from the rich and giving to the poor Latest addition*****this was a joke by the way. And i'm thinking of changing my name to Threadkiller....what do you think?
