How to dull a sharp katana for training?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by thomas81, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I think he forgot a zero when he wrote $175, go easy on him guys.
     
  2. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    Or teach people how to care for their sword.
     
  3. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    The UK is even more legislation-happy than the US. Imagine the fallout and crackdown on the legitimate people teaching and practicing safely when people start losing fingers and such with instructors like this.
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I was hoping you'd see that.

    :D
     
  5. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    So many bad information is out there, being 'taught'. Even some of the people showing off their blade making skills sometimes make mindnumbingly stupid comments. I try not to care when people share their 'wisdom' unless I am part of the group where the conversation is happening. Then I try to correct things. That's the only reason I even mention that I am a bladesmith, so that hopefully, the person I am addressing does not dismiss me because their 'friend / sensei / uncle / ...' knows better than me.

    Ignoring the fact that this sword is a piece of crap, dulling it has no effect on the damage it will do. In our workshop forum, we have a thread with pics from workshop accidents involving sharp blades, dull blades, and even unhardened blunt blades in progress. No matter the state of the edge, flesh and skin will part and make messy cuts. Yes, there is a difference between the cut from a sharp and a dull blade. But not as much as you might thing, and definitely not enough to matter.

    Ssaly, here too I admit I know what I am talking about. :)
    I've seen the white of my finger bone. Luckily it was only small and no tendons or nerves hit. I've seen pics of fingers with whole flaps of skin removed by a dull blade.
     
  6. thomas81

    thomas81 Valued Member

    The blade is pretty damn strong and thick, i don't doubt your credentials but with respect i doubt it would shatter in that manner sheerly through handling.

    For reference, this is the link to the sword that I purchased.

    http://www.katanamart.co.uk/en/buy-...sale/234-musashi-handmade-katana-swords-.html

    The people who sold me it must be giving misleading information because according to the retailer:

    -Katana sword for iaido, kendo, battodo, kenjutsu and ninjutsu practice, perfect for decorations

    -Maru kitae blade with bohi, made of AISI 1060 steel with high carbon steel, fit for medium hardness targets

    -Black tsukaito and Musashi tsuba conceived for the practice

    -Black lacquered wooden saya and real black Kakucho type sageo

    -Perfectly balanced, suitable for amateurs and experts

    -Authentic handmade production. All its parts can be disassembled and reassembled like a real Katana

    -Supplied in an elegant cotton bag with the Yarinohanzo logo on it
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  7. thomas81

    thomas81 Valued Member

  8. thomas81

    thomas81 Valued Member

    nah, not when i feel i am starting to make progress. Anyway, i am not all about swords I like the self defence angle too.
     
  9. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    That being?

    (No implications here. Just asking.)
     
  10. thomas81

    thomas81 Valued Member


    I used to do wado kai and shotokan karate before. I felt like i didnt learn a damn thing or how to defend myself in a real situation because MA's like these aren't about surviving the streets, they're about winning trophies in tournaments. All of the moves are sweeping, not hitting below the waist so on and so forth. I feel like the bujinkan is different because you learn to think outside these tournament rules. Also because you get roughed up more in the dojo environment its easier to take it in your stride when someone attacks you for real.
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Sweet zombie jeebers........:rolleyes:
     
  12. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Given the training goals you've outlined, you would be best served taking up judo and iaido.

    Better still, considering how cheap judo runs, this would probably cost you no more than you're already spending on training.

    With judo, you'll develop an understanding of timing, distance, and kuzushi that will serve you well for self defence and future study (if desired) of classical martial arts. With iaido you'll learn how a sword should be safely practiced with and used.

    There's a reason so many in Japan do that or similar combinations.
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What are the most common forms of assault in your locality?
    What aftermath training do you do?
    What de-escalation training do you do?
    What force continuum training do you do?

    And how does that fit in with your BBT?
     
  14. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    I don't doubt the steel is thick and strong.
    I doubt the quality of the heat treatment.
    175US$ is just extremely cheap. My sword making friends call this a 'sword like object'

    Whatever the website mentions doesn't really matter because they're in the business of selling things. They won't say something like 'this sword is good for cutting things up a bit, but you probably shouldn't be doing partner training because you might impale your partner when the blade shatters'.

    Let's break down the cost:
    at 175$, you can bet that about 40 to 50% is profit for the retailer. that leaves about 100 that it actually costs. Subtract 15 for the steel. It could be more. If I buy 1060 it is more expensive, but lets assume that large quantities can bring it down to 15 $. That leaves 85. Then the saya, another 15. The tsuba and tsuka, another 20. That leaves only 50 to actually make the thing and make a profit. For that amount, it cannot be a decent sword, considering the hours involved in making a good sword.

    Making it sharp is easy. And if you use it for cutting things, that is not going to be a problem because the impact of cutting things is not bad, since the sword is going through and doesn't decelerate abruptly. The website even mentions this: perfect for decoration, good for medium tough targets. that means: absolutely no partner training.

    Partner training is dangerous. Not only because a sword is sharp, and even a dull sword can make horrific wounds. Too bad the mods removed the link I posted (understandable considering the wounds shown) and that was a dull wallhanger sword. That is also why in Japanese systems, only master level people will use actual swords in a partner drill, and even then not at full speed. Everyone else will use at most a iaito.

    During partner drills, there is a lot of sword on sword contact, or wood on sword contact. Especially when working with a bo against a sword, this is bad. Blocking a bo strike with a sword is a very heavy, sharp impact. Sharp impacts are very detrimental to steel. Even a strong blade can shatter fairly easy. If the heat treatment is not perfect, the chances are that it will break sometime during partner training.

    When that happens, you have 2 people in close proximity to a fast flying piece of steel. And that is bad.

    So, tameshigiri: yes. Partner training: no.
    Their own website even mentions this.
    Your shidoshi should have been able to tell you the same thing. And if your shidoshi only dabbles in sword, and you learn from him, the question of how to make the blades safer for partner training shouldn't even come uo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  15. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    Ok I just checked out the manufacturers website. Couldn't do that earlier because those sites were blocked at work. The manufacturers website It allows you to build a custom sword like object, which is nice because it tells you how much the bare blade costs. In 1060 steel, the bare blade, finished, is 85US$. Remove the retail markup, and you finish somewhere around 50 US$, which is more or less what I estimated. Although you'd have to subtract the price of the raw steel, so that means you end around 35 - 40. For that amount of money, I don't see how you can turn a bar of steel into a sword.

    Some of the other choices of steel they offer do not make sense. 1045 is too low for a quality blade, but that might be good enough for iaido, giving you the weight and balance of a katana. And it would be better for partner training because it is less likely to break. Although for something that cheap, I wouldn't risk it.

    What is more interesting is that they also offer 1095, and they offer it without differential heat treatment. Meaning the blade will be through hardened more or less, and that is an odd thing to do for something with the length of a sword. Because while it will take a good edge and probably cut well in tameshigiri, I suspect it will shatter if you try to block a bo strike. The carbon content of 1095 steel is 0.95%, which is silly for things that need to be impact resistant. An actual genuine Japanese sword has between 0.6 and 0.7 because that is the sweet spot in the tradeoff between impact resistance and a good cutting edge. And even then the spine would be made from even softer steel, just to decrease the chances of the blade breaking.

    That said, I will check with my friend what he thinks about 1095. I think it is odd.
     
  16. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    I think the questionable nature of the YariNoHanzo stuff is pretty clear from what we see.

    Mainly I'm hoping that OP has seen that something is not quite right (and, most importantly, safe) about his current training environment and lack of guidance and has taken some of the advice in this thread to heart.
     
  17. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    I just heard back from my sword smith friend.
    Indeed, a through hardened 1095 sword will shatter very quickly. We know some of them are through hardenend because in those cases they have to wire brush the hamon or etch it, which they say they do for the cheapest configurations.

    The only way to solve that would be to temper them back after hardenening, to a point where they are halfway unhardened again. That gives you the worst of both worlds: a crappy edge with a crappy sword.
     
  18. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    You can get a 9260 spring steel sword from Cheness (a forge in China I believe, offices in California) for less than 300, razor sharp and practically indestructible. I like them because they have free shipping through UPS, easy-to-use website, and their inventory is usually in stock, unlike many cutlery companies.

    The SBG guy (Sword Buyers Guide website) torture tests their stuff. If you break their Oniyuri, Kaze, Yamakami or Tenchi, you definately went beyond the boundaries of normal tameshigiri.
     
  19. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    OP didn't buy his 'sword' for tameshigiri. He bought it to use as one might a bokken... (which is simply wrong on every count).
     
  20. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    True. Nothing makes me pucker like watching a movie or TV show where people are sparring with steel. Whether shinken or aluminum, it's just a no-no. Hell you don't even do randori with bokuto unless you want a shattered hand.
     

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