how to apply techniques

Akiwolfie - getting back to everone in turn

YES IT IS - Have you ever used your training outside of a school fight? In the real world of adult self defence kicking can be used so well for controlling the range of a fighter. Not talking high kicks here but low style thai kicks. This to me shows your in experience in kicking and I think Aikido could do with using the limbs as they are weapons that you have. To me the art uses it footwork well for defence and entry but the could be made to work more.

Not an authority agreed but I have done Taijitsu and Jujitsu that is fairly similar and Taijitsu is less orientated to strength hence I understand the methodologies behind the moves very VERY well. Hence I found Aikido fairly easy to adapt to.

As I said I am pretty experienced in MA with about 12-13 years experience so I am 100% sure I know the difference. This was even mid - high graded students. In both schools (one I visited twice).

Please explain as 95% of the other people on MAP think it is - here again you show your in experience. If the above was posted on the general forum I think you would be mauled - I do low kicks not high TKD style Aikido is not much for defending against low kicks.

Cross the street - I don't look for fights, this is a pretty dumb statement.

Pretty obvious but this is awareness as well.

Not seen one with a few months in souly Aikido who could, sorry just being honest as the moves take much longer to get to grips with for REAL applications. They can do them in the Dojo I doubt in a fight.

I know this technique from other arts and know not to use it. This is with some degree of experience I hope you will look outside of your local Dojo and see some more wonders of MA.

Please add some value to this thread and not the dribble about kicking being no good for SD - you assumed I do high kicks.

 

I wonder why people thought you did high kicks?

 

Once again little of use added

If you read the post its pretty obvious I don't do TKD well it is to me as I am saying its not safe to do high kicks as the same results can be ganied without turning your back or doing a high kick.

Never have I said I do TKD, please ad something constructive Dexter as I would be keen to hear some of your views

 

Just Be fluid...

Strictly going by the parameters of your question, do not apply Shiho nage to his punching arm. Instead, grab his other arm and apply your shiho nage there. You'll be surprised at how pliant that arm is - because his attention... or ki... or mind is focused on his punch leaving his other arm pliant.

Personally, I would close the maai by stepping forward and pivoting my body to present my side (to the attacker's outside - a tenkan movement). His punch will hopefully miss and I will then prevent his punching arm to retract by stopping his elbow or tricep area (punching arm) with a grip. With the remaining force on his retraction, Apply a hard style Irimi nage with no leading movement (or a hard style Heaven and Earth) or just slam your arm blade across his naked throat. By the time your arm blade has slammed him, your other hand has already slid from his "blocked" elbow and up to his shoulder blade - thus, making your "arm blade" strike much more effective.

 

Re: Just Be fluid...

Tenchi nage = Heaven and Earth throw

Irimi nage = Entering Throw

Col

 

What has just been said for a punch

makes far more sence than Shionage ever will.

Glad to see some sence being injected and thanks guys.

 

I'm just going to sit here and bite my tongue.

You see..I like shihonage. If you don't like it, that's fair enough...but don't try to tell me it doesn't work because I don't care whether you think it works or not.

I like that it can be done from far away, changing my relationship with uke as I move in. I love that I can stop any time during shihonage and another technique is right there for use. (Lots of techniques open up during shiho.)

I like that it looks so simple, but is so hard to learn. I like the (pretty obvious) triangles, circles and squares in it. I like the way it can look like tai-no-henko/ichi-no-suburi/kokyu

...I could just go on and on

 

Gravity Said:

Hmm.. the discussion was about a knife attack (if my memory hasn't evaded me) and I think it WOULD be unsound for someone to effect Shiho Nage on the opposite arm of some one holding a live blade in the hand of the other.

<edit>
Yep my brain has left the building.. the question was from a punch.. sorry.. stand corrected
Dave

 

Well actually Sonshu as it happens I have used my Aikido training in real fights. I have also found low kicks to be extremly easy to avoide and counter. So in my experience kicking is pointless. Yours is obviously different.

I just noticed you're in the Heathrow area. I'm assuming this is Heathrow England.

That being true then it's not surprising the two clubs you attended were not very good.

English Aikido students, for whatever reason do tend to be very lazy and over compliant.

I'm sorry if other people are reading this and get offended but it is sadly true. There is also a strangley high number of shodan teachers in England.

With 12-13 yeasr MA experience Sonshu you should have noticed long before 6 months had passed the club you attended was no good.

Because you have studied shihonage from other arts doesn't make it the same as Aikido. Shihonage changes greatly from Aikido style to Aikido style. Where I practice for example we never throw over the hips. All our shihonages involve nage staying up right at all times and very fast circular movement.

95% of all the people here might agree with you that kicking is critical in self defence. That still doesn't make it so. Give me a single example where you would have no choice but to kick.

Most people here might also say self defence is fighting back and giveing as good as you got. Unfortunatley from a legal point of view at least that is simpley not the case.

Kicking someone in the knee isn't self defence. It's kicking someone in the knee.

I never said an Aikido student with only a few months training could execute a technique in a fight. I said they could use their training to some degree.

I also said several posts back shihonage probably wasn't the best technique. But with enough skill it can be done.

I also noticed that you didn't pick up on the point about kicking a knife from someones hand. Would you attempt this? Would you advise students to attempt it? How would you deal with a knife attack?

So far as my martial arts experience goes I have 3 years Judo, 4 years boxing 7 years Aikido and a grand total of one night kickboxing.

I also learned how to strip clean and assemble an SA-80 in less than 60 seconds at the age of 13 when I was in the army cadets. This does not make me a weapons expert however.

 

LMAO.. That is a BOLD statement and one I think you'd be very hard pressed to actually prove.

Correct.. But, that would make you extremely proficiant. I'm an ex Rock Ape who taught Skill at Arms to recruits and trained airmen as part of their continuation training programe, that would according to my qualifications (did) make me an expert on that subject.

I can't comment on the numbers and I train within the UK, could you direct me to where you came about this fact.

Regarding Shodan instructors.. I would agree there are some who are teaching with minimal experience however, I don't have a problem with this provided they are supervised by a more experienced Aikidoist but, Shodan's need the valuable teaching experience if they are going to put back their experiences and knowledge thus far in to the Dojo. Before ANY student takes a class (on more than just a on-off) they must have completed some form of recognised coaching course, either run in house or, externally driven from the likes of the BAB etc. If an instructor is teaching unsupervised, his/her qualifications need to be more advanced than merely 'assistant'. I beleive that their insurance is invalid otherwise.

Whilst we're on the subject, I also get on my high horse when I see shodans expecting to be refered to as Sensei. For anyone not in the know; Sensei means more than 'Teacher' If my memory serves me correctly Sensei actually means "Born before" thus, implies a greater knowledge through life's experiences in the person to whom you address as "Sensei" So, ok, a shodan may have more expereince and/or knowledge than a kyu grade but, the wearing of a BB does not automatically infer the right to be called or refered to as Sensei. If you (a shodan for instance) and training in a club with a higher Yudansha is at it's head, (if you are the next senior dan grade) you are refered to as Sempai, The junior may be refered to as Kohai. This is of course a vertical reference from the top down.

I would welcome any additional input on the last, from those with a good grasp upon the Japanese language and / or the customary use of the term "sensei".

Dave

 

Sensei just means the guy in charge on the mat, whether he/she is a yellow belt or 4th dan.

There is a danger with us Westerners to put too much meaning into words.

That's just my opinion obviously.

 

I was being bold Dave? lol ... Yeah ok it was a bit of a bold sweeping statement, but I thought it was about time I made one.

When I said english students tend to be lazy, this is entirly from my own experience and doesn't include all english Aikido students. I do know there are some very good teachers and students in England. But I applogised already.

I have absolutly no problem with shodans teaching under supervision. That is how it should be done. You need to learn to teach as well as practice. I have found that teaching under supervison has been highly beneficial as it has taught me alot about my understanding of Aikido.

But to find out how many there are teaching on there own, you only have to check the BAB club listings or do a search on Yahoo for their web sites. You will be shocked at the number of shodans apparently running clubs. I should add the problem is getting just as bad in Scotland and we all know the current state of American martial arts (all show very little substance).

In our dojo Sensei is the head teacher. We're told there can only be one teacher on the mat. When Sensei can't take the class for what ever reason, the title along with the responsibility passes to the next highest student.

So far as insureance goes all students expected to teach without supervision should have cover for teaching.

And you're a weapons expert Dave? Kewl beans. When I was a cadet I was very good. I put my heart and soul into perfecting everything I did. Which I do now with Aikido. It must be perfect. lol

 

Are you saying here that taijitsu is less orientated towards strength than aikido is or than jujitsu is?

This is something that I started a thread on a long time ago (July 2002) as I wasn't sure on the merits of kicking. You can all have a read of it if you click here (I hope that worked...it's the first time I've tried to do it! )

It seems, Sonshu, that you want others to look outside their experience to see what else is available and what works yet have steadfastly refused to entertain the notion that shihonage may work, even though people have written that they have used it in real life situations. I'm not suggesting that it will work for everyone, or that it is the best technique to apply from a punch (it would depend on the type of punch I suppose) or that it will work every time...just that, possibly, you shouldn't be closed-minded about it.

That's my tuppence worth!!!

 

Silvers Reply

SILVER, I HAVE LIKE OTHERS EXPERIENCED THINGS AND OTHER STYLES AND TECHNIQUES, FOR ME I THINK ITS A BAD TECHNIQUE AND ONE THAT I FEEL STRONG ENOUGH ABOUT IT DISCUSS WITH OTHERS HERE AS I CAN DO IT BUT IT JUST LEAVES ME FEELING I WOULD NEVER USE IT AND DO NOT TEACH IT EITHER. JUST DISCUSSING IT THATS ALL AND GETTING USED TO THE NEW FORMAT ON MAP. I AM CLOSED MINDED ABOUT THIS FROM EXPERIENCE NOT IGNORANCE THOUGH.

 

i think everyone here has their own strong beliefs and opinions.... some people think english aikidokas are lazy (ha!) some think shiho nage sux (gasp!) but all in all, these are very close minded opinions.... jus because you see a technique done by one person doesnt mean that person was doing the technique perfectly.. also every technique can be varied... shiho nage for instance has about 10 variations that i've seen (prolly a lot more) same is true for a roundhouse kick... i never thought that kicking with a bent leg was a good idea till i trained with a few thai fighters (i def learned my lesson).... yes shiho nage is a somewhat complicated move and maybe i wouldnt do it on the street but i can tell you when i tried to stab my sensei with a "knife" and he applied a shiho nage i was utterly helpless (def good self defense) and some aikidokas don't take aikido to like the acrobatic side with the super ups zempos (spelling?) and constant falling down and getting back up in a split second and might go more a geriatric (spelling?) side but like o'sensei said aikido is for EVERYONE that includes the energetic and the lazy.. i mean look at o'sensei himself a man at 70 who could pin sumo wrestlers and take on multiple armed attacks without breaking a sweat... was he lazy????

again these are still close minded opinions of me... i will never say shiho nage sux/good english aikdiokas are lazy cuz well ive only experienced shiho nage through X amount of people and ive only met X amount of english aikidokas... you cannot make these generalizations... at least have an open mind and hear what people have to say cuz well your martial arts learning doesn't stop at a black/red/super gold and red and black belt even o'sensei (in my mind the greatest martial artist ever) was still training/learning to the day of his death

 

Aikiwolfie

Trying to get back to everyone here so bear with me:

"With 12-13 yeasr MA experience Sonshu you should have noticed long before 6 months had passed the club you attended was no good."

I did know it was crap if I was honest with myself but was new to the area and did not have much choice. Also I wanted to give it a proper stint before making a more informed oppinion. I like to have some basis on what I am talking about and it was a bit of a laugh but for me it was not right.

"95% of all the people here might agree with you that kicking is critical in self defence. That still doesn't make it so. Give me a single example where you would have no choice but to kick."

If you are carrying or picking up your drunk mate, hence arms needed. Or you are being hit whilst putting a jacket on and your awareness has let you down for whatever reason. Just two pretty common options - now I need to kick.

"Most people here might also say self defence is fighting back and giveing as good as you got. Unfortunatley from a legal point of view at least that is simpley not the case."

I know the law well as it came after me once for acting in self defence hence I will only use a closed fist if I am in real trouble or have presence of mind to think not too. I was found not guilty but still went through all the rubbish of a 9 month legal discussion. Not nice!

"I also noticed that you didn't pick up on the point about kicking a knife from someones hand. Would you attempt this? Would you advise students to attempt it? How would you deal with a knife attack?"

I tend to not try to kick the knife out of a hand but to use a kick more as a distance tool for knife work. It is a bit hard to say about dealing with knives over the internet I am sure anyone will agree but it depends on too many factors and I would need more info to discuss it. I do knife techniques and the most important thing with them is expect to get cut!

Also your martial arts experience and training is credible but its clear you have not had much experience of kicking hence you not putting much faith in it. Why not have another look at it in more depth and you might see its uses?

 

Carrying your drunk mate doesn't stop you puting him down, using him as a sheild (he won't feel it, he's too drunk) or even still evading the attack. Now if you're awareness lets you down then kicking is still pointless because you're on the floor already with the mental capacity of a log because a bottle has just been smashed over your head.

I've never had much faith in kicking as a tool in a fight. Even before I started martial arts I've alsways exploited the fact that a raised leg provides the perfect opertunity to knock someone to the ground. Given that I've gotten by without the need to kick. Then the kick has been relegated to the "nice to have but not critical" section of the tool box. I'm sorry but we'll just have to have our different opinions on this.

Why won't you dicuss some of the options open to you for dealing with a knife attack. I'm sorry but when you're willing to shoot down other peoples sudgestions sitting there saying it's too difficult to explain over the net is just a cop out.

How much info do you need in a real attack? Are you saying if you get mugged you're going to say "Oh hang on I need to measure your stats Mr. Mugger. And by the way how exactly are you going to attack me"? In my original post about the shihonage, I gave a senario. Someone trys to slash you. Think to the face, it's a fast attack and it's in the middle of the street.

 

sword .... so true but I'm only human .... anyway I'm interested to see what sonshu thinks.

 

Ok I will discuss a knife attack option

I am not too keen on doing much senario work on line as my thoughs on what the situation look like in my mind are different to other peoples. This is often something that is discussed in the general forum that it is hard to give a critical analysis when there is nothing visual that everyone sees.

Right here goes.

I will take a common knife thrust (stab) to the stomach area, not one I am keen on but its an easy training one.

I would then step outside of the attacking line and trying to take the stabbing arm at any point, if this is not possible it is there to check the arm to stop it slashing out (I can put a strike in as well for good measure to the floating rib area) (assuming I have good purchase on the stabbing arm). I grab at the same time as using my other hand to come around the neck and take his balance also forming a major amount of damage on his neck.

At this point he has lost his balance and is in danger of having his neck broken. More to the point there is pretty much nothing he can do as his balance is controlled by me and I have good control on the knife.
___________________

I have had knife attacks done on my twice and have a scar from both incidents so I am pretty aware of the risks involved and this is a pretty simple soloution to a obvious knife attack, taking the key points. The weapon arm, his balance and his vision whilst being able to finish him off at any time - all this and I still have full visability of my surroundings.