when using aikido how can you practically apply the techniques,i can see kote-gaeshi working,i can see irimi-nage working but can't see how you would apply for example shiho-nage against a punch to the head bearing in mind a real attacker doesn't leave his hand out but pulls it back to punch again.
I think the idea is to catch his hand, given then if its actually hit you it doesn't matter if he holds it out or not, you're probably not exactly focussed on your technique.
i might come across as being big headed here but still here goes so please forgive me,as a small and light person i beleive in throwing a volume of punches rather than one haymaker and i truely believe that with my speed of punch having done boxing no one is going to be able to catch and keep hold of my hand if i intend to throw 4 punches alternating right and left in succession
sorry if i came across abrupt,i just think it must be possible or the technique wouldn't have stood the test of time so i'm looking for some answers.
do the shiho on his other arm, silly. Also...aikido techniques are like any other martial techniques, you do not blindly try to apply a technique unless the situation dictates it. You do not use a jab on someone attacking you with a flying kick. (Unless, of course, he is naked.)
Okis, lets look at the question at hand... Shiho Nage from a punch (I presume to the face) Before I begin what I'm sure will end up being a loooong post lets look at the guiding principle of aikido - To harmonise with ones adversary. Personally I don't like the word "Harmonising" although it does describe the effect you desire. Lets assume that you are faced with an individual who you highly suspect of lunging a punch at you.. Firstly you are already aware you are in some form of danger, this in it's self is a VERY important part of one's training - AWARENESS - Called "Zanshin" in Japanese. Secondly if and when you find yourself on the receiving end of a punch, you've basically left the situation way to long and, you are now having to work 'reactively' to the situation however, you asked about Shiho Nage from a punch so.. Here it is. As your attacker makes his attack you need to make a decision whether you make an Ura or Omote application. The choice is based upon the situation at hand, is it.. a) safe to move in a direct that may present you (no matter how short a time) to the risks of a second punch with the other hand or.. b) to move in the opposite direction away from a perceived risk (as mentioned above) and.. c) Because either direction is blocked preventing you from going that way. Now, once the (subconscious) decision has been made where you are going to take the technique, you need to match yourself to the speed and integrity of the attack, too slow and you'll probably get tagged or, too fast and you'll present your intentions to your opponent who will exploit this weakness. You now make a strong ATEMI (Hit your opponent) to fix him momentarily, distracting him from his intent. You have now created a situation where you may apply shiho nage. All the above happens in a split second. You can expect the arm that is rapidly being thrust in your direction will have some degree of tension in it, even after you've struck the individual so, you need to know how to create the correct shapes desired to effect the technique correctly... Here the answer in writing becomes far harder to articulate. Shiho Nage can be applied in so many directions - Pretty much unlimited I'd say, I believe O-Sensei described this application as "The forty year technique" meaning that he expected it would take forty years to learn. Never the less it is not an easy technique to apply but, it is possible with practice to apply from a punch or within a series of punches provided you are in the right place at the right time - other essential Aikido principles. Ok, so the punching arm is now being retracted, this is a classic situation where one's tenkan tai sabaki can be applied to great effect, as the arm is retracted, you are moving irimi whilst 'claiming' the arm ready for the technique, you make a strong tenkan (turn) whilst dropping your centre and making the Shiho Nage technique. The claimed arm which is part of your contact with your opponent is then 'cut' down your centre line (as if you were holding a sword) this cutting motion is another fundamental principle of Aikikai Aikido and creates a very dynamic breakfall for Uke, it reality, this application would severely injure the arm/shoulder of an attacker as well as making him fall to the floor at speed thus, creating possible further (most likely) injuries to his upper body and head. The origins of Shiho Nage lie directly with the application of the Japanese sword and the Batto Jutsu (Sword Drawing) motion. The practice of Ai-hanmi shiho nage relate to the attempt to stop a swordsman from drawing his weapon, the Shiho part of the technique allows the swordsman to move in any one of (basic) four directions whilst drawing his katana even though he is held in ai-hanmi. The result of this would be a severe if not fatal cut however, the nage part of the technique when practiced empty handed, is to allow a hand technique to be applied (- IE an throw or projection) This principle of hand art techniques bearing a direct relation to the sword is at the heart of Aikikai Aikido which also draws heavily on other weapons influences.
Aikido is a really hard art to apply Shino-nage is a move that I found hard to do with a Aikido mindset because the 2-3 Aikido schools I have trained at had such a poor concept of striking. If you take this to a Jujitsu mindset then you can grapple the person or strike them (not pretty either case but hey its realistic) then apply the technique. Aikido people I have trained with have been quiet easy to dominate due to the nature of how they move and the empasis of defence. Against a trained fighter it is harder to use. Still the footwork was excellent and I was really pleased with some of the methods I picked up on this.
This makes me feel sad. Aikido is as martial as the next 'martial' art, it is however the manor in which it is taught that determines how effective it will be. If you are taught to be reactive then you will apply your aikido in a reactive way, If you are taught and practice aikido pro-actively, that is to say you understand that you DON'T need to wait for an attack to apply aikido, then it becomes "martial" in orientation. Yes I accpet there are several (traditional) methods of training that don't bear any resemblance to practicality in today's concept of self defence however, the attitudes of the students are very important in determining *IF* their aikido will be effective. I also firmly belive that.. "There is no such thing as a bad student, only bad instructors" Aikido seems to have a bad image with students of other martial disciplines, one reason for this in my opinion is that the perception of the training methods relating to it's practicality.. Which is not always the case.
Ok I was gunna explain this one too ... but the fact is I'm so tired of this question of "how do you do a technique in the real world blah blah blah I do this style and I don't think it would work blah blah blah". I haven't been posting on this forum very long and already I've seen this question more than enough times. It's time to move on.
If it is so openly mentioned then perhaps its a real world problem? The main fault I found with it was low grade people falling over due to over comliance before there is any shread of technique used, secondly I just stand there while people try to put techniques on to no avail. I am fairly flexible but it helps them to develop a correct technique. Lastly I found many thing hard to complete (Last attempt at the art was with a 4th Dan as the instructor so he should know what he was doing). I felt a bit like a fraud as the Atemi Aikido students talk so much about was not there but it needed to be to make the distraction to do the techniques on show. THESE ARE REAL WORLD PROBLEMS - also the art could do with including kicks imho.
dave had a play with shinonage using the tenkan entry and think this is a more practical way to apply the techniqe,for the sake of aikiwolf once more i'm not saying the technique doesn't work i'm simply asking how to apply the technique in a practical way against a continually moving arm,any help gratefully received.
Warren, can I ask how long you've been training and the style of Aikido you practice ? I ask this because I do understand a student's deisre to want to find the "practicality" in techniques but, it must be said that you MUST first learn and fully understand the principles of Aikido before looking to make it practicle. The reason for this is fairly simple. Aikido movements are drawn, as I've said before from both empty hand and weapons techniques, to understand how they work, you need to understand their origins, IE why move this way etc. Once you understand these and other principles, you can look to the practicality of techniques. You will find several that to be honest, arn't very practicle, then you will find those that are. At this point my question of which style is important. Because you've developed strong hips, a good mental attitude and a series of techniques you favour, you will be in a better position to make them practicle. DaveH
dave i don't practice aikido as i don't know of a good club in the birmingham uk area,however i do practice aiki ju jutsu and have a good basic understanding of locks and throws.
I apply Techniques You can have all the principals in the world but if you know no techniques you are a bit of an armchair martial artist. Freeform I often agree with your views but its techniques that are needed and this is where the more physical throwing arts do better. Judo Sombo BJJ Jujitsu etc these provide a solid base of tried and tested methods that do work rather than airy principals. This is my view if it works then it works - you should not need to try to make a technqiue work it just should after a bit of practice. The technique in question I do not feel is that much use, great if you can get it but the time needed is so much in such a short period between blows.
I'm a big advocate of repetition, repetition, repetition you have your techniques right there. All I'm saying is its foolish to think, 'I'm going to apply X or Y technique' You'll find yourself in a position your body recognises and BANG, there's your technique! I see too many students who try to apply the same thing even when there's no chance it'll happen, there is no flow! People get to hung up on singular 'techniques'. There are no 'principles' without 'techniques' the two go hand in hand. Technique without the understanding of the priciples behind them are less than useless. Principles can exist without technique but are hollow. I'd rather have 3 techniques and fully understand and apply the principles than know all the techniques of Aikido, BJJ, Sambo, Judo and Ju Jitsu. I've fought in a lot of Judo and Karate using only a handful of techniques and done quite well, the key to this was knowing when to apply them and fluidity, and not trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Cheers Col
Re: I apply Techniques Hold on, just noticed what I call principles you probably call methods or a methodology. Princles include, avoidance, balance breaking, sensitivity (not the kind where you sit around holding hands talking to trees), positional awareness, yielding and fluidity to name a few. What would you call these? Col
