how much atemi is used in aikido clubs these days,one common statement is that aikido is 80% atemi would you agree with this or does it differ from club to club,or does it depend which style of aikido you practice,if atemi is used where do you strike the most ie metsubushi to the eyes,heavy strikes or just strikes to distract. thanks in advance to all and any replys.
Atemi is not only hardly ever used but it is usually ineffective, predictably straight, telegraphed and totally lacking in serious intention. That's not to say it won't hurt you, just that in a real situation it is probably useless. Yes, at one point O Sensei said Aikido was 90% atemi (probably in frustration) but to be honest it is laughable. Aikido is 99 percent ikkyo - how's that for a good saying? (I just made it up) People should concentrate on the real sayings of O Sensei...'I want considerate people to listen to the voice of Aikido. It is not for correcting others; it is for correcting your own mind. This is Aikido. This is the mission of Aikido and should be your mission.' Of course that is just my opinion.
DexterTCN, That post really made me laugh. As far as atemi goes, my feeling is that it's a good idea to learn to apply it (as strong, effective strikes/fixing uke in place/diversionary tactics) in all it's forms.
LMAO @ Dexter. From my point of view you should always have the intention to strike behind an atemi. Even if it's just a diversion. It's upto your uke to get out the way.
I try to find a worthwhile atemi in all my technique.. Either before, during or at the end of an application (or a combination if required) Dave
The use of strikes in Aikido manifests itself in three main ways (Each of these can be further broken down into more precise description.) A Strike as a Technique in Itself A Strike as a Means to Facilitate Another Technique The "Not Striking of Striking" The use of atemi as techniques in themselves, in other words to end the confrontation without need for any other additional application, is as a means of creating physical dysfunction. This can range from strikes which attack the vital organs and are designed to kill to strikes which are targeted at specific limbs and can end an attack by making it impossible for the attacker to continue. This could include crippling blows or strikes which are meant to deliver enough impact to render an attacker unconscious. The use of atemi alone to end a confrontation is not generally studied by aikidoka of the post-war styles and most of the practitioners who have a working knowledge of this aspect of the art acquired their knowledge by way of training in some other striking oriented art. The use of strikes in this manner is generally considered the option of last resort in Aikido because of the emphasis on non-violence. The Aikido ideal is to end a confrontation without inflicting serious injury on the attacker. So this area of study is, for better or for worse, de-emphasized in most Aikido training. When strikes are used as a means to accomplish a different non-impact technique it can be executed in two different manners. In the first case an atemi can be applied in order to cause intense pain and therefore create a shift in the resistive energy of the attacker (this could be accomplished with or without injury based on what type of strike were used and at which of the above targets). The moment the attacker shifts his attention and therefore his Ki to the site of the pain his resistance to the main technique being attempted tends to diminish drastically. This use of atemi is generally considered by most Aikido practitioners to be the proper one if strikes will be used at all. The drawback is that techniques that rely solely on pain are quite unreliable. A seriously motivated attacker simply doesn’t notice and that means that there is no shift of attention. So choosing to target atemi to non-injurious vital points can increase the risk of failure in a self-defense situation. Another way in which impact can be used as a means to accomplish a different technique is by using strikes not for injury or pain, although those might possibly be a by-product, but to change the physical alignment of a resistant attacker. Frequently when an opponent has stopped a technique, it is close enough to success that switching to a variation is not necessary. The simple application of impact, such as a knee strike to the back of the upper thigh when an attacker resists a kokyunage, can change the alignment of the attacker sufficiently to free up the blocked energy of the technique. No pain or dysfunction is necessary in this type of impact delivery. It simply alters the structure. The final aspect of the use of atemi in Aikido falls within what I call the "not striking of striking". This is the use of a strike with no necessity or expectation (on the part of the person delivering the atemi) that the strike actually make contact. This is the type of atemi which many Aikidoka favor while not understanding that for effective use of this atemi to be made, mastery of the actual impact techniques previously described needs to be attained. This is the "energetic " use of atemi and the attacker must really believe that the true strike were being delivered and feel the necessity of putting his attention on it. Imagine that you are standing behind a perfectly clear sheet of Plexiglas and someone throws a baseball at your head. If the throw were done powerfully, with speed you would cringe and duck even if you knew the Plexiglas were there. If the throw were done by simply lofting the ball you would probably not react at all. The "not striking" use of atemi must have all the energy and potential of a real strike or it will not create the effect on the partner, which it is designed to accomplish. The weak atemi thrown by many Aikido practitioners will simply have no effect on a motivated and trained attacker. The "not striking of striking" atemi can be used as a distraction technique in the manner described previously. To accomplish distraction and its attendant shift in resistive energy it is only necessary that the attacker shift his attention. This might come about because the strike connected and caused pain enough to register in his consciousness or it might occur when the attacker uses a block to deal with the strike and prevent impact. Anyone who has had occasion to apply Aikido techniques on a really resistant subject as in police application knows how hard it actually is to get a technique on someone intent on countering it. We train to maintain connection but a real attacker will attempt to break with you the instant that he doesn’t feel things are going his way. It is necessary to get the attacker to create an opening for establishing connection by delivering an atemi, which forces the attacker to block. The Aikido technique can then possibly be run on the blocking arm rather than on the arm or leg, which had delivered the primary attack. Once again, it is possible that the atemi will hit but it is often not required, as it is much easier to get a connection with some part of an attacker’s body when they commit to defense than when they are throwing an attack. Finally, the aspect of striking, which is most misunderstood outside of Aikido circles, is the so-called "touchless throw". Every interaction in Aikido contains many different possibilities. Most of the time in Aikido practice the strikes are implicit rather than explicit. One can do a whole class and not see any overt strikes. This is because, if well trained, both partners know where the strikes could be and do not do anything within the interaction, which would require that, the hidden strikes become manifest. But in the "touchless throw" we see the "not striking of striking" used in its most artful guise. This is accomplished by subtly changing the timing of a strike. The strike needs to be just fast enough that the attacker can not avoid or block it but is just slow enough that the attacker can respond to it by breaking his posture and taking a fall in order not to be hit. The emphasis on this type of interaction is unique to Aikido. It is actually a valid martial interaction in a type of coded form. An uke trained in the use of strikes as throws will be airborne the instant the strike is perceived. This can give an onlooker the impression that the attacker is throwing him self. At that point he either decides what he is seeing is bogus and involves the cooperation of both partners or, if mystically inclined, he believes that he is seeing people being thrown energetically, without the need for actual physical contact or force. In fact on one level each of these points of view is true but not for the reasons they would think. The point is that here we are looking at a form of Aikido interaction which doesn’t normally exist outside of the dojo. If one tried to throw an untrained partner without touching him it would merely manifest itself as a strike which hit. The partner would not understand that the agreement exists that I run the strike in just such a way that there is just one "out", to take the fall. There are probably other, more subtle ways in which Aikido utilizes atemi but the main ones are covered here. If one expands the definition of atemi from striking to include anything which nage does to catch the mind of the partner for a split second, then a whole new area of discussion opens up. One of my dear Aikido friends was fond of planting a big kiss on your cheek just before hurling you with her iriminage. It is indicative of the varied approaches to Aikido practice that many students seem to pick only certain of these aspects to incorporate in their technical repertoire. But as soon as one is interested in application of the Aikido techniques outside the controlled environment of the dojo it is necessary to put some emphasis on understanding each of these applications. *Atemi is not only hardly ever used but it is usually ineffective, predictably straight, telegraphed and totally lacking in serious intention*- BY dexter. you need to learn more effective atemi. if they are not effective there not real. atemi is a technique like ikkyo.
Aikiscotsman, George Ledyard Sensei wrote an article that touched on those three points. I agree with a lot of it, but also think that the lines blur once you being accustomed to the variations.
I think you are all talking about using cleverly placed strikes on an aggressor while you use higher principles to diffuse their ignorance. I am talking about someone hitting you. Peter Rhese made a wonderful comment once (not connected with this subject). Dojo complacency. Budd do you have a link for Mr Ledyard's article?
OMG and I thought Daves posts were long LMAO!!! But yeah I agreed with everything aikiscotsman said (I'm not gunna quote it I doubt MAP has the disk space). In my eperience getting to grips with a good atemi seems to be something beginners have trouble with because they are scared of either hurting their uke or themselves. I always tell people an atemi has to count. It's upto uke to get out the way. I must think I'm going to get hit or it won't work.
I can tell you how beginners (like me ) are taught to regard atemi in our club. Firstly, we're encouraged to use palm strikes to start with so if any contact is made the chances of real damage are less (and that's not supposed to start a debate on the effectiveness of palm strikes - remember we're talking beginners here ). Secondly, for now, we're told to concentrate on the move, and only get the atemi in when we can. When we are told to use atemi, they are generally used to make the uke move in the right direction - for example an elbow in the ribs as you go under their arm to double them up ready for a kaiten nage, or a strike to the jaw to make them lean back and break their stance for a tenchi nage... though quite often we'll start a technique with an atemi just to give the uke something to think about. I've only ever seen the higher grades use atemi to complement a technique, or occasionally as a diversion (remember this is from a beginner's perspective - I could be missing out on something). And to be honest, coming from a karate background, the atemi used in our aikido club are pretty lame, particularly those thrown by the uke to instigate an attack Still doesn't mean I'd like to be on the receiving end of one placed in my line of momentum!
Hey all, Two good articles (IMO) from George Ledyard Sensei are: Non-Traditional attacks http://www.aikiweb.com/training/ledyard3.html Atemi http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm
Now that I'm reading it again and reading aikiscotsman's post -- whaddya know? Now, is there a place in aikiscotsman's post where he acknowledges the source or did I miss it?
I've always been taught that if you are going to make a strike you better make it count. Why short change yourself throwing a strike/atemi with little intent when it takes just as much time to use one with full intent. If you happen to dispatch an attacker with an atemi alone, kudos to you, the fight is over quicker which allows you to get away or deal with the next guy sooner. I myself use atemis to manipulate the uke's kazushi in favor of the technique I choose. In practice we suggest the atemis be real but held back enough to stay with in your comfort level. Over time your body will be conditioned to the blows and you will be able to progressivly sustain harder strikes with some comfort. I've been (un)fortunate enough to be demonstrated on by our head teacher on the effectivness of strong atemis. I will attest they are VERY effective, the split second it takes for you to manage pain is enough for you to be put into a very compromising lock/throw with out much awareness. By the time you've composed yourself its time to start ukemi.
