How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based arts compared to physical fighting ones?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Flyingknees, Jun 25, 2021.

  1. Flyingknees

    Flyingknees New Member

    And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?
  2. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Given there is such a broad range of weapon based arts, and with so many different focuses, I think we need to define the term proficient.

    What is the goal?
  3. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    There really is no difference between learning weapons based or empty hand arts. both require the same base skills of movement and co/ordination. different people progress at different rates for a whole lot of reasons.

    As Dan asked the key question here is what do you mean by proficient? My grandfather teacher used knives in combat against the Japanese in Manchuria. He was an exceptionally proficient fighter. He said that in a knife fight you have 15% chance of escaping with without life changing injuries and a minimum 50% chance of dying. This is why the dog brothers knife defence philosophy is "Die less often".
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  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yep desired outcome is the key starting point.
    Over lockdown I've taught myself 31 jo kata, Silla knife pattern and I'm now on Sushi no kon bo kata (very tricky!). So 3 different weapon patterns/kata with 3 different weapons.
    My desired outcomes were to keep my "martial mind" busy with new things (amusing myself basically) and to learn some basic weapon handling with weapons I'm not familiar with (done some FMA with knife stuff but no jo or bo at all). To that end I've achieved my outcomes to some degree. I can go out in the garden for half an hour and swing wooden stuff around.
    If my desired goal was to actually fight with a weapon I'd approach it very differently. I'd find an actual teacher of that weapon first and foremost, focus on that one weapon for a significant period of time, spar with a safety version of that weapon, etc.
  5. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Depends on the weapon. Usually it's about the same but given the individual mechanics of a weapon, it can very much depend, both on the weapon mechanics and on the specific physical attributes to use it. As an example sabre requires some good forearm strength, and the sue mai gwan requires some good forearm, shoulder, and back strength. If you want to learn multiple weapons simultaneously I would always suggest learning two which are radically different so your brain isn't trying to learn similar motion paths.
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  6. Flyingknees

    Flyingknees New Member

    With regards to the last sentence, that's the complete opposite of what I've been advised by other martial arts practitioners (only a handful) so far. They said it's best if I study no more than two weapons at a time and that they should be ones that have similarities between them. They said that that was even how it was done when it came to professional Arnis training.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    To be fair that's not the exact opposite,

    If you want to learn arnis weapons effectively, do no more then two at a time, with similar body dynamics,

    If you want to learn multiple weapons at a time, which use different body mechanics, try to learn radically different ones.

    Arnis isn't the entirety of all martial arts.
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    And the more Martial artists you ask, the more varying opinions you will have. Each opinion with their own logic behind it. ;)

    There are different ways of approaching questions like this in martial arts. Some people will find a style/ school that recommends one to work better for them, while another student finds the opposite approach works for them.
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  9. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Barehanded combat means fighting against people with weapons barehanded so of course it's more difficult. Train with that in mind. If you can break a knee with a lightning quick front kick then a knife is meaningless. They will not expect it if you're any good.
    Barehanded fighters train their constitution and weapon handling skills barehanded. They must use their own strength and durability to defeat others. Their skill must be great and their judge of distance and timing must be just as good as any weapon user (given a high ability and overall level). Certain martial artists train their skin and flesh so that cuts are more shallow than on an untrained individual (rare). They likely have thicker flesh and are used to damage and can still execute techniques after such. Barehanded martial arts is the true way but most difficult. A gun can clearly do damage but it is at the very perimeter of martial arts weaponry for it doesn't quite cultivate the individual, it doesn't trudge up and churn the inherent weakness and grime inside one and require alchemy of oneself into a warrior.
    Simply put: Martial artists get the silliness beat out of them! Get hit more and knock them out! A perfect martial artists would be a master of all weapons of course, to clarify. Develop your karate hand (sword hand, 'diamond finger' as shaolin say, chop, that stuff), elbows and knees, shins, feet, headbutt, strengthen and toughen all your vitals for your armor, make yourself the weapon before you pick up a weapon. Fight against weapons but make all of yourself one before picking it all up. Develop your senses like you have radar, feel if someone is looking at you or behind a door/ wall, count at a glance and judge intent without looking or knowing someone is around. That's what martial arts is about, its essence is pure.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2021
  10. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Sorry but maybe MAP should have some sort of test so that people that believe in fairytales get rejected.

    Stop watching to much kungfu movies.
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  11. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    What do you not agree with.
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Pretty much every statement you've made is wrong.
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  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's not what barehanded means.

    You've misread the op.
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  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    This isn't something to rely on.

    If when getting stabbed, you take your foot of the floor so you can't move, you will almost definitely get stabbed again.
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  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    This is nonsense.
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  16. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    I didn't misread it, I'm just expanding the topic a bit. What is the point of being technical but for your ego? If you train barehanded you train to deal with weapons as well, simply put.
    You are assuming a scenario, how is this anything more than your ego spouting off some bird crap to try and humiliate me and score points for yourself? The kick creates distance and wounds at a distance, simply put.
    My bad, I mean to say handling another whom has a weapon.
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

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  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Barehand training does not have to include weapons defence, and in the martial arts that do training weapons defence, it's mostly very poor quality.
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  19. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Thicker and tougher skin and flesh is more resistant to cuts, this is a fact. It is dangerous to assume you're invulnerable but this doesn't invalidate the statement, just adds a cautionary addendum to it. The honey badger in Africa has a thick loose skin that keeps a lion from piercing its hide, likely from all the bee stings it experiences and other factors of course. This proves that skin can prevent puncture and slash, if it is thick and tough enough. Given that the principle of it is valid, there are the means to be discussed that allow a human being to develop a thick and tough hide, as well as thick and tough flesh to produce a similar result. Thus, what I said was not nonsense.
    Sure. You don't have to train kicks or grappling, or even punching either. You can be come a specialist in something like Boxers. The poor ability of instructors to convey to students the capacity to fight against weapon wielding opponents is irrelevant. This is nitpick bullcrap. That most people aren't very good in a melee has nothing to do with what is possible for those that train and diligently arrive at methods of dealing with armed opponents. You might try to put that on my shoulders as if bringing it up invites the burden or responsibility onto myself, but I have done my part of suggesting the reasonable approach of a strong, fast, untelegraphed attack at the opponents mobility or ability to fight (such as striking a vital); this has nothing to do with the eventual culmination of martial arts that I suggest though, which is the point I made.
    To master barehanded combat is essential to the culmination of martial arts. Plain and simple.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Martial artists do not develop thicker flesh, and even if they did, (which they don't) that won't stop a knife.

    You can always try it yourself,
    Honey badgers skin is approx 6mm thick, the thickest skin on the human body is on your heels at approx 4mm, go stab or slash yourself in the foot, and see if it works.

    (For anyone else reading, do not do this)

    None of your "amazing insights" seem to be rooted in reality.

    What's your deal? Personal validation?
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