The jujutsu that both Ueshiba sensei and Funakoshi sensei studied was the Ten Shin Ryu the Tokyo branch of which was ran by Takisaburo Tobari. While this had a strong effect on Funakoshi it did not effect Ueshiba so much as he was also studying at a Shinkage Ryu dojo. Of course it was the daito Ryu which was to effect Ueshiba the most. I repeat the strikes seen in Judo are from the kata taught by Funakoshi based on the Ten Shin Ryu. I spoke to numerous aikido shihan about this as I was publishing it in my first Aikido book.
If you want to proper understand something, study it properly. Get a textbook, get a private teacher and go to work on the language. Don't pontificate if you do not know. Again, without proper experience and knowledge or clarification of that knowledge, don't post it. No, you say that your posts It helps if you can really understand the Japanese language. Your information has been flawed in posts on several occasions. Relying on the internet, rather than your own personal knowledge gives your arguments zero merit. Allow me to illustrate: The kanji in budo terminology for kihaku is 気魄. If you can't even be specific in the correct usage of the kanji, don't try to correct someone. It makes you look extremely foolish. Ki No Miru? Ki is a noun. Miru to see/observe is a verb. It requires the wo (を) particle. Same for your "ki o miru" it's 気を見る This is Elementary school level stuff here. Go to any textbook (Japanese for Busy People is a good one) and find out for yourself why what you wrote was incorrect. 気魄を見る Kihaku wo miru - Kindly please translate this into English for the benefit of the rest of the posters. If you have any decent elementary knowledge of the Japanese language, you'd know that literal translations sometimes do not work. Especially in budo.
Quoting from a language other than one's own, within one's own language requires care and attention, in order to impart meaning.
No, the atemi as taught in the Kodokan judo kata, such as the Kime No Kata, Kime Shiki, Joshi Goshinjutsu, seiryoku zenyou kokumin taiiku kata, and Kodokan Goshinjutsu are all derived from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, with the exceptions of a few strikes which actually come from different koryu jujutsu ryuha. How do I know this? One time in my life when I was living in Japan, I actually studied the related ryuha as well as Kodokan judo. I did a lot of training, research and a lot of reading. I'll even cite bibliographies if it floats your boat. Good lord, you really pulled that one out of your butt didn't you? Care to show some research related findings for such fantastic statements? Kano Jigoro studied Takenaka-ha Kito-ryu. Kito-ryu has a solid foundation in sutemi, not atemi. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTlxH0jcT04"]Kodokan Koshiki No Kata (Takenaka-ha Kito-ryu jujutsu kata) [/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ_Hnns2Qw"]Kito-ryu from Okayama-ken demonstrating techniques of the ryu.[/ame]
Below two Judoka performing atemi and lock. Atemi in judo is similar to that in aikido..it is PART of a technique It is NOT developed from karate which came to Japan MANY years later.
for clarification: I'm still learning how to use quotes on the MAP, so My posts that Kogusoku are answering are italics, Kogusokus posts are in bold, and I answer him in regular type...so here goes, and good luck: Hmmm, I believe my previous post was directed towards, aikiwolfie...but since you have taken some initiative and responded to a post directed at him, I will, in kind, respond to you. If you want to proper understand something, study it properly. Get a textbook, get a private teacher and go to work on the language. Don't pontificate if you do not know. Been there, done that...still doing it. By the way? "If you want to proper understand..." Did you mean "If you want to properly understand...." I know, just a minor error. (but wait, there's more a little further down). Quote: Izumizu: Then, once I have an understanding of that very basic and readily available information, I am able to apply that to my training, and modify my skill set based on the defeciencies incorporated from a lack of complete understanding of the principle, where it came from, what it means, and how it was passed on to, and came to be referred to (often erroniously) in aikido circles. Again, without proper experience and knowledge or clarification of that knowledge, don't post it. I've already stated that there are many types of atemi (infact some judo kata isolate and deal with a very specific few as part of their kata), and to clarify for the members of MAP: There are around 400 vital points on the human body. I have only been training my atemi in about 15 of these. Recently I realized that this training was defecient, and so I added another 8. Quote: Izumizu The history and development of ate mi as an applied science goes back about 4000 years. How did it manage to also find its way to aikido, and if it did, does this evolution match what has been gained in the understanding of ate mi from the arts that came before it, or the knowledge of those who began to study and introduce it to the concepts of aikido. That is basically how I train ate mi / striking, in addition to my other posts, which incedentally many of you are now beginning to echo, believe it or not (on this thread and others). No, you say that your posts I understand that english may not be your first language, and it is required here on MAP, but could you please be more specific? Did you mean to say: "No, you say that in your posts?" If so, then I will not dispute that, I do say that in my posts, have said it, and looks kind of like I am saying it again (must be something repetitive in my training nature). Or did you mean to say "No, you say that your posts_____________." ? Again, just a very minor error. It helps if you can really understand the Japanese language. Your information has been flawed in posts on several occasions. Relying on the internet, rather than your own personal knowledge gives your arguments zero merit. Allow me to illustrate: These were not my posts...I was replying to a post from Mr. Koyo at this time. These are his posts, perhaps you should ask him what he meant. Quote: Originally Posted by Izumizu (which in reality, if you would kind of do a little back reading, you would realize were first posted by Mr. Koyo) KI HAKU The fighting spirit to face a dangerous attacker. If here you meant: the color white: 白 hiroi...or 魄...haku, soul spirit? (Which if you add "ki" in front of it, you can also add 1,000 other kanji...but still has nothing to denote a dangerous attacker...) Or are you perhaps referring to yin and yang here (from which ki evolves) denoting that yang is white? The kanji in budo terminology for kihaku is 気魄. Yes, of course it is, and it relates to spirit, soul, drive...still nothing to denote fighting, combat, martial. Nothing to denote dangerous. If you can't even be specific in the correct usage of the kanji, don't try to correct someone. It makes you look extremely foolish. Again, this was taken from Mr. Koyo's post...please address this question to him, as I was attempting to do for clarrification purposes as well. Quote: (which in reality, if you would kind of do a little back reading, you would realize were first posted by Mr. Koyo) Izumizu KI O MIRU To immediately see the fighting spirit or intention of the attacker and to take advantage of this. we already thouched on this with your interpretation of ki gurai...but if you could be a bit more clear: if you ascribed kanji to your meaning, it would basically translate as: "ki o miru, or ki no miru: the observance of ki: 気 の 見る ki being observed: 見る お 見る Ki No Miru? Ki is a noun. Miru to see/observe is a verb. It requires the wo (を) particle. Yes, thankyou for pointing that out...even in a basic highschool japanese semester one class that would have deducted -.5 to -1 off of the overall score of a paper. In anycase, the を "wo" is pronounced phonetically as "o", as in door, which by the way is the same pronunciation for お "o". Additionally, I was again going off of what Mr. Koyo had posted, in a post that he had addressed to me, and what you reference here is what he quoted, and then I, attempting to gain some insight as to what he was saying asked him, in a post directed to him, for clarrification. So, my incorrect use of the お "o" again was phonetic, and based on his phonetic use of the word O as well, but again, a very minor error that would have counted off very little in any Japanese classroom, and spoken phonetically would have still been correct. For instance: Nani o nomimasu ka? (What will you have to drink), would not be pronounced: Nani wo nomimasu ka? Although native speakers would not have a problem understanding you in this case, you might get a few strange looks from time to time. The w is silent. Additionally, particles follow nouns in japanes language. In this case the を "wo" pronounced "o" is a direct object marker. Same for your "ki o miru" it's 気を見る This is Elementary school level stuff here. Go to any textbook (Japanese for Busy People is a good one) and find out for yourself why what you wrote was incorrect. I would never waste my money on Japanese for Busy People. It is not a good book at all in my opinion. Quote: Izumizu In anycase, this does not mention any attacker, fighting spirit, or possible advantages. If you could make your references more clear, it could help me to decodify your mystical interpretations of what you are trying to imply here. 気魄を見る Kihaku wo miru - Kindly please translate this into English for the benefit of the rest of the posters. Gladly: observing spirit, soul, drive. Still nothing to do with fighting, combat, martial, warrior...nor does it even hint at dangerous. The japanese language actually has other kanji for those, like: 武, "bu" meaning war or martial, 戦闘 "sentou" to fight/battle, 危ない "abunai" dangerous. If you have any decent elementary knowledge of the Japanese language, you'd know that literal translations sometimes do not work. Especially in budo. Literal translations are definately possible...it is not some mystical or fuzzy language. Those that are native speakers know exactly what they are saying, and there is no ambiguity. And now for the fun part: Kogusoku Quote: Originally Posted by izumizu -- Of course, but I think what we see in modern judo is more the karate type approach to atemi, and not the style used in Tenjin ShinyoRyu, although some of it still remains in a very few of the kata (and not fully practiced by all judoka). I stand corrected on my statement that Kano learned much of it from Funakoshi. No, the atemi as taught in the Kodokan judo kata, such as the Kime No Kata, Kime Shiki, Joshi Goshinjutsu, seiryoku zenyou kokumin taiiku kata, and Kodokan Goshinjutsu are all derived from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, with the exceptions of a few strikes which actually come from different koryu jujutsu ryuha. Tenjin Shinyo-ryu comes from Yoshin Ryu. Yoshin Ryu specialty was atemi. Kime no Katacomes from Sosuishi Ryu. Kime Shiki (you are right in not calling this Kime Shiki Kata, because it is not a kata, it is a renshu), and only a few of the techniques have similarities to Tenjin Shinyo-Ryu. Joshi Goshunjutsu is womans (joshi means woman) goshunjutsu, and kodokan goshinjutsu comes by way of Tomiki Kenji. It is the last of the formal kata introduced to judo. And here, "seiryoku zenyou kokumin taiiku kata", is not actually a kata, but is also a renshu: seiryoku zenyou kokumin taiiku, or seiryoku zenyou kokumin taiiku renshu, and it is not even zenyou...but zenyo (but let's not get into correcting minor, basic, elementary gramatical errors, again I understand that MAP being a global community where not everyone has as English their first language, no big deal), as in seiryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku renshu. How do I know this? One time in my life when I was living in Japan, I actually studied the related ryuha as well as Kodokan judo. I did a lot of training, research and a lot of reading. I'll even cite bibliographies if it floats your boat. Nahhh, don't bother...I like the butt theory you propose below. Quote: Izumizu One could also propose that this was also learned through his study of kito ryu (which O sensei also studied), or fusen ryu, both of which had solid foundations in atemi, with kito ryu having a longer history. Good lord, you really pulled that one out of your butt didn't you? Care to show some research related findings for such fantastic statements? Kano Jigoro studied Takenaka-ha Kito-ryu. Kito-ryu has a solid foundation in sutemi, not atemi. Okay, the 21 techniques grouped into judo kata in the koshiki no kata are sutemi waza. There were a total of 97 techniques from Kito Ryu. That means there are another 76 techniques that did not make its way into judo curicullum. Kito Ryu is largely responsible for developing the principles of kuzushi into japan (that does not mean that kuzushi originated in japan...). Additionally karate was not introduced to Japan in the 1900s...it came by way of China and the Korean penensula long before..., and evolved into a form of empty hand fighting in Okinawa since the chinese forbade the Okinawans from possessing weapons. This happened again when Japan invaded Okinawa, and also forbade the Okinawans from posessing weapons when they occupied Okinawa. It is T'ang Hand, and was later changed by the japanese to basically reinvent their history...you see t'ang (pronounced tong) came by way of China, and the Japanese have never, until recently been ones to admit they recieved, gained, or borrowed anything from the outside world. Karate has been in japan for centuries.
Karate was not introduced to Japan in the 1900s...it came by way of China and the Korean penensula long before..., and evolved into a form of empty hand fighting in Okinawa since the chinese forbade the Okinawans from possessing weapons. This happened again when Japan invaded Okinawa, and also forbade the Okinawans from posessing weapons when they occupied Okinawa. It is T'ang Hand, and was later changed by the japanese to basically reinvent their history...you see t'ang (pronounced tong) came by way of China, and the Japanese have never, until recently been ones to admit they recieved, gained, or borrowed anything from the outside world. Karate has been in japan for centuries.
After a 10 hour shift, I couldn't really give a damn about my spelling. I was lucky I didn't fall asleep on the keyboard. Never mind though, we're seeing a passive aggressive pedantic attack. Something to be expected. I was actually addressing your comments on Koyo's post. It's in the context. It's how it is used. Erm no, it was quoted from your post. You see, there's this wee button down at the end of every individual post with "QUOTE" written on it. That's how I got your information. The Japanese and the grammar mistakes which were both written in nihongo and in romaji were yours. These ones right here. Ki No Miru? Ki is a noun. Miru to see/observe is a verb. It requires the wo (を) particle. Nope, you're an adult. Start acting like one. Unless of course, you are still in highschool? Orally, pronouncing "o" & "wo" are OK. However, in written format, it's a big no-no. So you are incorrect. Sorry. Again, you used a written format to make yourself look more seasoned in the language. Your mistakes were shown. Deal with it. I disagree, for bare basics of the language, it's a good stepping stone to learn from. Context of usage. Again, context of usage. LOL! Did you ever click on the link in my signature? There's only one full technique from Sosuishi-ryu in the Kime No Kata. The majority are from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. I trained in both ryuha while living in Japan. Zzzzzzzzz. *snork* Sorry, what? I shan't be petty and mention the "goshunjutsu"........ I'm going nowhere near that. Cite sources please. Oh? So what about older ryuha, such as Takenouchi-ryu, Takagi-ryu, et al. Are you saying they didn't have principles of kuzushi? These schools were founded before Kito-ryu.
You mean to say people could figure out how to hit each other before the Not So Ancient Art of Karate was invented in the early to mid 20th centurty? *gasp* Imagine that! Intersting how often a particular skillset is directly related to ryuha and filtered through historical accounts. Pretty sure people have known how to hit each other for awhile.
-- No, I never implied that I was a mean SOB. I merely implied that I seek to improve deficiencies in my own training, which I clearly stated in the post you are referencing, and the post prior to that that Kogusoku is referencing, and the post prior to that in which I am replying to aikiwolife. If somehow you equate that to me being a mean SOB, then it sounds like a personal issue. Evedently many, many posters here in this forum care...out of my 400 posts in less than two months, about 10 or 15 of them have been in response to the OPs topic, an additional two were replys I had made to posts that were not clearly addressed to me, and the rest were all in response to other members that obviously care enough to continue the discourse with me. Kind of like yourself, and in this very instance.
Kito Ryu predates even those...and no I did not say that others did not have those principles, what I said was that Kito Ryu is largely responsible for developing those concepts, and then eventually that is where J. Kano and M. Ueshiba also could have learned / been taught those concepts. M. Ueshiba was already a well respected and very accomplished martial artist before he and S. Tededa ever met. In anycase prior to kuzushi, many styles were still using leverage to topple ones opponents. Kito Ryu is historically known as having developed principles of kuzushi...in reality though, those thoughts and ideas also came from other martial arts that originated off the islands of japan.
Kogusoku Had a session with the guys and deliberately encouraged their use of their crosstraining arts. Exhausting but great fun. Really found out that it was the weapons PRINCIPLES that empowered my empty hand striking and techniques. Also the striking threw and passing over was the main principle that stood out. This is trained in the danger that there may be more than one attacker.
-- Pretty much an admission that others are still interested in replying to my posts. And that I've been a little busy keeping in touch with all of you here on the MAP. As for mean, I'm not mean at all, there really are not people that I surround my self with to be mean to. Now I may get angry from time to time, but that's human nature, and very different from mean. If by my admission of guilt that I previously mentioned that I am guilty of having defecincies in my training, and that I seek to improve upon those deficincies, then I would have to agree with you in that case, but I've already stated that at least four times, and I don't associate any feelings of guilt with it at all. It is just reality. Now, I would think that if I studied and knew all 400 vital points on the human body, I might then be able to categorize my self as a mean SOB, but then again I would be so busy with my studies and training and practice that I wouldn't really have much time to actually be mean. Okay, I will admit that I have been mean on a few occassions to people in my life. Like when I was growing up I was really mean to my little sister. And then when I was older I was mean to a couple of other people in my life, but we have all since parted ways (with the exception of my sister of course). Currently there are other people in my life that would find it difficult to categorize me as mean, and my training in vital points or martial arts has nothing to do with it. Okay, my little neice might have categorized me as mean at one time, but she was going through a difficult time experiementing with illeagle drugs, and I wouldn't say I was mean with her, I would say that I was "tough" with her, but again my training in martial arts / aikido, striking / ate mi, vital points...had nothing to do with that episode.
It is not that your post (like your surfing experience) are very interesting, but there are people here that have spent many years in what they do, and when someone comes and writs crap, they tend to want to correct that. Well I'd categorize you as someone with too many choices with too little time. Again who cares? Well if it has nothing to do with aikido or this thread at all, why did you write it? It is boring to read, nobody cares!
OP At some sessons we imagine that we hold a weapon and strike/cut with our empty hands. Since the timing and body alignment learned in weapons training is fundamental to our principles in empty hand. I shall often demonstrate that. Below Irrimi nage executed as though I was unarmed although I was holding the bokken. When I asked about striking MANY years ago this is how I was taught so as to use the weapons principles. Below irrimi nage.
