From where I'm sitting at the moment you seem to be deliberately interpreting the Japanese terms out of context to provoke a reaction and draw attention to yourself. Which is actually quite sad.
-- I understand that from where you sit, things may appear very sad, but please allow me to elaborate. The reason I choose to compare and contrast japanese synonyms is to more fully understand the exact reasons a particular kanji has been chosen to represent a certain skill set, and to more fully understand the history behind why that word/kanji was chosen as opposed to numerous others that could infer the same thing...thereby understanding the history and evolution of martial arts, with a specific emphasis placed on aikido. Then, once I have an understanding of that very basic and readily available information, I am able to apply that to my training, and modify my skill set based on the defeciencies incorporated from a lack of complete understanding of the principle, where it came from, what it means, and how it was passed on to, and came to be referred to (often erroniously) in aikido circles. The history and development of ate mi as an applied science goes back about 4000 years. How did it manage to also find its way to aikido, and if it did, does this evolution match what has been gained in the understanding of ate mi from the arts that came before it, or the knowledge of those who began to study and introduce it to the concepts of aikido. That is basically how I train ate mi / striking, in addition to my other posts, which incedentally many of you are now beginning to echo, believe it or not (on this thread and others).
-- Training? Experience? What is that? Actually I just woke up one day and basically knew all of this stuff. And then I decided to go online and see if perhaps there was some type of forum (MAP) that existed, because if there wasn't I was going to create one. Only I was going to call it Martial Arts Universe...unfortunately there were obviously some that came before me that implemented the idea first. Well, really it all started when I invented the Japanese writing system...okay, I didn't actually invent it, but I decided to borrow it from China.
OP You may be surprise to hear that aikidoka have taught striking to karateka. I taught for a number of years at a karate club in Stirling. Recently we taught at a karate seminar and the main thrust was in defending the face during striking rather than draw the "other" hand to the hip. Below a few of the guys from the Makotokai are showing body alignment with weapons then teaching why not to take one hand to the hip when striking. regards koyo
koyo, with regard to Atemi, how should we condition our punches? like a boxer or a kareteka? with puching drills on pads/bags? also, puching strikes can be straight jabs, torqued karateka like strikes?, boxer's hooks? for open hand strikes, knife hand cuts and thrusts (to throat) are all trainable from jo/boken (sadly not enough in my case). Palm heel strikes should also work i.e. a forcefull shove (I hqave never tried this in Aikido - but I see no reason for it to not be effective and still in line with Aiki principles), but may result in uke being dropped to the tatami, rather than taken into a breakfall. for me the most important aspect is seizing the opening while it exists, but puching conditioning is not something I have come accrosss in Aikido, but I have found it in other MA. also, we need to condition our ukemi to mitigate tori's atemis (and give tori an atemi or 2 back). so this means effective guard and adjustment when the guard is pierced (which will happen from time to time - no such thing as a free lunch.) my take on this (however minor) is that all boils down to awase blending.
Awase blending. Is often misinterpretated as moving same time. When it really means the sen principles.To see his timing and movement and to use swifter timing and body alignment to attack before during or after avoiding his attack. Often I shall say "fence" him empty handed so thrust straight diagonal strikes or punches apply there and the major principle of attempting to leave no opening while attacking, I had studied judo and shotokan before beginning aikido so I could punch/kick and retain my balance. However the body alignment and attacking the kuzushi and weapons training effected my striking . Mainly in attacking kuzushi. Any form of bagwork or crosstraining can be valueable.
This is helpfull and informative. There is an element of this in my movement, but it is not backed up by much ken and jo - empty-hand fencing so to speak. In my case, my balance is still taken away relatively easily - I have really found this out in TaiChiChuan pushing hands, but it is getting a bit better, slowly. Even if uke makes a good face guard to keep tori at bay, the stomach area is still somewhat vulnerable to a nifty knee/kick - you can close of the opponent but only transiently.
Regarding the face guard/defence. Defence AND attack are one so never atempt to keep the other at bay ALWAYS attempt the sen principles. Also when attacking have NO thought of ukemi ONLY attack and numeous attacks. Ukemi happens when you are unbalanced. If this is done properly it is tori who is in control of the ukemi. A decent aikidoka shall throw uke into a proper ukemi. This is probably the finest compliment that I have had and that is I can thow a kyu grade into an almost perfect ukemi. If it is a serious/dangerous encounter. There is no ukemi.
I'm not koyo but I want to address your question anyway. :evil: I'll add in what my first karate instructor, Chinen Sensei, told me. He used the model of an iceberg. 10% of an iceberg is visible above the waterline, but 90% is not visible. Chinen Sensei said that secret to karate (e.g. martial arts) is in the 90% that is not visible. This 90% is the supplemental training. Supplemental training included sparring, cross-training, padwork, body conditioning, etc. The 10% that was visible were the kata, forms, basics, fundamentals practiced in every class. This model applies to black belt training. At whitebelt, it was a inverse iceberg with 90% of training being the basics and fundamental, and only 10% of the training being supplemental. So to answer you questions on how to condition punches. The fundamentals and principles are based on sword and stick as koyo posted. However, the conditioning is part of the supplemental training (90%) that is not visible. This would be the endless hours of training to strengthen the forearms and perfect the technique. This could also be the endless hours of pad work with a partner. Bag work. Makiwara... This is beyond what is trained during regular practice in techniques and fundamentals. For striking itself, match the weapon shape to the target... soft weapon to hard target, hard weapon to soft target (which can also mean harder weapon to hard target), etc. Just principles. I'm not sure what you mean by effective guard. The principle is "do not get hit" so a "guard" is just part of that. Is this "effective guard" you speak of the same or different for sword and stick, unarmed, knife, firearms, grenades, spear, bow and arrow... What exactly is an "effective guard"?
Hi Reb The guys do circuit training, cross training, bagwork. Anything to "get them ready" for training with me.
Hi Rebel, I suppose 'effective guard' is not being sloppy with the guard. For me a 'guard' is instinctive protection when attacking, but requires constant re-assesment according to the context of engagement - even in relatively low-key training, kind of like tuning a guitar. As the context gets more pacy and sharper, ones guard has to adjust accordingly i.e. faster - to continue to be effective. The guard can become a counter-attack weapon (I have seen this more in TaiChiChuan - e.g. counter to 'slap the face' than Aikido - but I dont see why it cant apply in this context also.) With weaponary (blunt or edged), the timing and sharpness of movement also adjust according to the changing maai, reflected in ones attack and defence(guard). Bottom line for me: open the opponent up, but mitigate the openings he steals from you e.g. your grenade example, I'd rather take the grenade in the hand/arm than full in the face - so guard! Thats my take on it Rebel.
Thanks embra. To me a guard is just the following: 1. protect vitals 2. get something solid between you and the threat (e.g. control centerline or get behind cover depending on what the threat is) 3. Take away the enemy's ability to attack you effectively (cut through their intention to attack) 4. Be a hard to hit target As for application of a guard, I focus more on positioning: a) shoulder to enemy's shoulder b) or shoulder to enemy's chest But this is just my interpretation of things.
Whats coming out in some of the posts in this thread and other threads; is that we should really try to supplement the basics of our art with fundamental MA training i.e. boxing, kicking, guarding, adaptation and other aspects. This typically means cross-training. In my case, where I travel a lot, and have to get the most out of whatever training I can find; it always boils down to fundamentals. The reference art for me will probably always be Aikido now, even though its no longer my major area of training.
Then can I suggest you take that examination of kanji to a new and separate thread instead of derailing all other threads. That way those who are interested can converse with yourself on those matters without irritating everybody else.
-- Considering the fact that every post I have made is directly related to this thread (with the exception of answering posts directed to me on this thread, or wading through a barrage of veiled assaults at my posts, as I am doing now), then I have no reason to begin a new thread covering the same topic. Just because you, or others do not like what I have to post, or perhaps do not understand it does not indicate in anyway that it is not relevant to this thread (how does aikido teach striking). It also does not imply, nor signify derailing. There have been thousands of views to this thread, and I am guessing that many of them are by non MAP members. I post to this thread for the benifit of all to read what I have to say. If you do not like it, or do not understand it, then move on. I've already stated that viewers do not have to agree or disagree with me. If you/they wish to comment on what I have stated, then great, the discourse continues. As for handelling this via PM: the degredation of my posts, and the insults, and attempts to attack my character, training and or lack thereof have not been addressed to me in PM, and those posters (yourself included) have deemed it necessary to post their questions, concerns, insults, and messages on the thread, and I answer in kind. Though considering the same tactics have been utilized against me on the majority of the threads I post to, kind of seems par for the course. Once again, I am not here to defend my position, or what I do, merely to contribute my understanding of aikido, and the progression and development of such. If the assaults, and degredation of my abilities, or lack thereof should need to continue, then I suggest perhaps you (or other members) start a new thread relating to such. If you need any help with that, or perhaps a catchy title for your thread(s) (as I expect there could be more than one), then by all means, PM me, and we can discuss it. Additionally, if you had not "butchered" (to use your exact terminology) my post #282, you would perhaps gain more insight into how I, in the practice of aikido, utilize, teach, and train striking (and additionally how that particular post applies to this thread). There was more to that quote than you decided to reply to, which indicates to me a very easy way out as a topic moderator.
-- I also have come to understand that Jigoro Kano learned much of his ate mi from Funakoshi sensei...and that in judo it is still practiced in kata, but forbiden from competition due to its tendency to be quite deadly. Since aikido and judo share many of the same principles, it is no surprise to me that this is also the approach taken when aikido teaches striking...in dojo that teach and train striking in aikido that is.
OP Jigoro Kano learned his atemi from Fukuda Hachinosuki of the Tenjin Shin Ryu jujutsu in 1877. Funakoshi Gichin introduced Karate in 1922 some forty five years later. The striking is quite different in aikido because it is used to attack kuzushi and empower techniques more so as direct finishing strikes as used in karate.
-- Of course, but I think what we see in modern judo is more the karate type approach to atemi, and not the style used in Tenjin ShinyoRyu, although some of it still remains in a very few of the kata (and not fully practiced by all judoka). I stand corrected on my statement that Kano learned much of it from Funakoshi. One could also propose that this was also learned through his study of kito ryu (which O sensei also studied), or fusen ryu, both of which had solid foundations in atemi, with kito ryu having a longer history.
