Bottom line for me is what I have learned on the mat. When I felt it or used it those were the interpretations I was give by the shihan involved. I have a completely different approach to training than you seam to present. All of the original shihan explained that they were not exactly teachers as we in the west understand the word. Sensei meant something more like an example/one who has gone before and A FEW were invited to join them and EXAMPLES of principles shown and the challenge to find them yourself. ONLY when you seamed lost would just a few words be given and EXAMPLES . As for the descriptions of ki I do not need kanji or Chinese interpretation. What I wrote was what I was told then "felt" from Japanese shihan.NOTHING ambiguous about them at all. Plus I have spoken of them and trained in them with a number of shihan fromother arts and found NOTHING ambiguous. Your other atatement "I will acceed a point to you" means absolutely nothing to me. When I post I hope something of value may be in it. I care little if somone disagrees with me. If they post something I find of value. Great.If they find something of value .Great. The photograph I posted regarding Kokyu Nage was given to me by Sekiya Shihan and he said now THAT is kokyu nage. He was speaking after a seminar where kokyu nage was involved.
-- If you have a different interpretation, it is because I am UKE, and you are NAGE. You need not explain your ambiguities to me, but please do so for others on MAP that may not have as much knowledge, and come here to seek understanding of aikido in light of their current training. Or perhaps Global hoppers commng from other arts that may wish to more fully unerstand what it is you are referring to? If you will not take a point that I accede to you, then you are completely disregarding the principles involved in kendo? To which: Ki KEN TAI ICHI may be ascribed???? As for our disagreements? Can we at least agree to disagree? I am still glad you remain open to analyzing, and interpreting what it is that I say, as I delve deeply into what it is that you have to offer here on MAP! Regards, Bill!
Additionally, I could as well post pictures of O sensei performing techniques that exemplify how aikido teaches striking. That does not mean that I understand what he was doing, or strike in the same fashion that he does. How else does aikido teach striking/atemi? I have already brought up shoulder striking which many of you have elaborated on...is there anything else? I would especially be interested in the "scottish kiss," or perhaps the "irish handshake," as previously mentioned, but then again how many dojo train in those applications (at my dojo we have at least 3 techniques that we train for such situations, and although three is hardly enough, we teach those methods effectively, with force, with intention, and commitment on the part of uke; that develop as one progresses in the role of uke, so that one may as well develop in the role of nage). As for the techniques we apply in addition to strikes in said situations, I would love to hear others similar training of strikes in aikido.
I NEVER agree to disagree. I simply disagree there is no malice or anything wrong in that. Nor was there any malice in this Glasgow Kiss that he received for not blocking. I even waited to allow him to block the strike.
-- Great picture! I also have waited for my students to be in the proper position, and guided them into that position at my own sacrifice. I love your humor (even if none was intended)! As for your other posts, I would still appreciate some clarification to the meaning and the ralation as to how this signifies teaching one in aikido the methods of striking. As for your picture regarding the "balley," I'm definately not as composed when I try to dance, or practice...:evil:
The methods of striking in the sword and the jo are ment to save your life.This same attitude comes into empty hand . This developes the principle of having a stronger fighting spirit than your attacker and the ability to make defence and attack as one. And the triangular entry and ability to go from aware to 100% attack in an instant. These are really important principles that MUST be learned in case you are ever in a real fight. Simply the suburi (thousands) develope powerfull strikes that are executed by the entire body. Where you strike/kuzushi and "when"/sen are all as important as suburi or bagwork.
-- This could be said of any martial art that also teaches striking and atemi (to save ones life)...I agree that a strike during kuzushi is paramount, but it is not the same strike that one would practice in martial arts to shatter bones (not break, but shatter), or to apply concentric force to rupture internal organs. Very different methods applied here.
Izumizu I think it would be best for you to stay away from Japanese to English dictionaries. Now who exactly are your teachers?
aikiwolfie "Izumizu I think it would be best for you to stay away from Japanese to English dictionaries. Now who exactly are your teachers? " Really good question Wolfie!! Izumizu, its ok to have so many opinions but do you have the experience to back them up? If not you would do well to talk less and listen more. Many people posting here on Map have decades of experience, which is why I rarely post. My time is better spent taking advice from those who know better and trying it out in training. We were often told its best to just "shut up and train". Gerry
I do exactly the same thing. I am far too inexperienced to offer a valuable insight into Aikido so I choose to read and learn from those who do. Most of the people on this forum are quite happy to share their dojo info, lineage and the names of people they've trained with to back up the info they post Are you willing to do the same Izumizu?
That's a pretty big list at this stage in my Aikido career. This forum is so expansive I can usually find the answer to my questions with a quick search I truly appreciate the wealth of information that is available here
No matter what information you receive. The real value is to attempt it during practice. And remember anything YOU find out shall be of interest here.
The different methods of striking all have their own merits and pitfalls. IMO, the art of atemi is more about intuitively knowing when to strike rather than how to strike. The how to strike comes with learning good body mechanics and thousands of repetitions. The when to strike can only be learned through experience... through partner interaction. I can teach someone how to strike in 20 minutes, it takes a lot longer for them to learn when to strike unless they are a natural (have true killer instinct), in which case they already have been learning when to strike their entire life. Aikido teaches to strike through a kuzushi... this is the "how" to strike. But many schools do not practice atemi enough to develop "when" to strike, IME. The when to strike is not centered around a weakness or opening, since by the time someone perceives a weakness, it is already too late to strike as that opening will be gone in a moment. The when is to TAKE AWAY the enemy's ability to "strike you back" as you strike them. Today in class (Kajukenbo, not Aikido, but the point is universal)... today in class we practiced a "lapel" grab. The grab of the clothing turns into a choke the more the opponent struggles to get out. So it is really a choke using the clothing, not lapel grab. One of the first principles is "deal with what bothers you the most first" is not intuitive with this situation because you think you are okay and suddenly you are choking out, so most don't even think they are in danger of a choke until it is too late. Well in training we KNOW the choke is coming so we deal with it by "turtling" (raising the shoulder and tucking the chin resembling how a turtle pulls its head into its shell). Here is the point of atemi. The atemi in this training was an elbow strike to the side into the partner's face followed by an eye rake. If it is just an elbow strike and eye rake by itself, it does not work because you get choked out. If it is NO STRIKE and you just turtle, you protect from the choke, but the training partner is free to strike you again and again with their knees and with other weapons. So the technique is an elbow strike to the side, in which you RAISE the shoulder as you tuck your chin just before and during the elbow strike. This is BOTH the turtle with strike... this is atemi. The strike both protects you from the immediate danger of the choke (even if you do not know you are in danger from it) and it stuns or unbalances the opponent so that it takes away their ability to strike you again. At that moment they are open... but only for that moment... and the eye rake hits (dropping the elbow through the opponent's arms during the eye rake also frees you from the choke)... plus follow-up, etc.
Exactly. Part of studying anything is to ask a question. In fact isn't that how study begins in the first place? So ask all the questions you like. We have a wealth of people posting here with various degrees of experience and from various different schools of Aikido. We have the whole spectrum from people who practice Aikido as close to the original as you can get all the way through to the softer styles that are more meditative arts than martial arts. So ask away. Experiment. Let us know how you got on.
Some schools do not even teach that much. Preferring instead to feign an atemi. Which might work once. But is more and more unlikely to continue working the more it's employed. It also removes the danger element from training.
My answer to feigning atemi is to ask, "will it work in a dark alley"? Or in other words, will it work under low light conditions.
Aikido teaches body movement that takes you off the line of attack. It also teaches you defence and attack as one meaning that the escape takes you into your attack. It also teaches you to create and attack openings in the opponent even more so than to look for openings which he may be able to defend. Many attacks to the head create opening to the ribs groin etc. MANY attacks in aikido are struck at the "blind" areas in a conflict when he cannot see them coming. Training in sword and stick teaches a great deal about creating and taking advantage of openings in the enemy. Powerfull techniques applied on you create strong powerfull and flexible arms and wrists, all of the strikes are applied as though you had a weapon and the principles studied like timing body movement kuzushi and vital attacks all are taught in atemi. Someone who learns to strike or cut with a sword or stick creates the use of the entire body to empower a strike, Below the attack on Dereck is effective because he does not see it and it attacks a kuzushi (angle that imbalances him). and a vital area like the solar plexus.
-- Would you prefer then that I use my chinese to english dictionary? After all the japanese get their kanji system from the chinese, and in some cases the pronunciation stays the same. It matters not who my teachers are, I do not come here to make myself known publicly, nor to make my teachers known in order to support what it is that I say or do or practice. What I share, I share because I choose to do so. As for the language barriers, I beleive it is important to understand the culture and history from which our art derives, and culture and language go hand in hand. It also gives a common ground for defining what things are and what they are not, which is why I stated in one of my previous posts (in a different thread) that a white horse is not a horse. The language and kanji used are very specific, unambiguous, and it is a writing system that has been in use for thousands of years, long before aikido was massed into a grouping of martial art. Aikido utilized and adopted the writing system to define and describe its existence (as did a number of other martial arts), and in many cases, much can be learned from that writing. For instance here 当 "ate," encompasses: hit strike bump win touch incur expose apply hold treat harshly and 身 "mi" encompasses: the body the person self flesh In this context to think of ate mi as striking would limit its capacity and detract from what it is or how it could be applied. Now training in those methods is a whole different subject that one would, with understanding of the kanji, and perhaps even its historical content, have to compare their training with the broad spectrum that 当身 "ate mi" encompasses. For instance, sometimes it is a strike, and other times it is a strike with a hold (as in time on target, landing and releasing of the force through maintaned contact) especially in the application against vital points or major arteries that run along bone. This ate kanji is very different from the kanji 殴 "rumata," which also means: hit beat thump punch strike knock slap
