How do I break balance in properly in Randori?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by ronki23, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member


    I've been doing Jiu Jitsu (Goshin Ju Jitsu based on Tenjin Shinyo Ryu) from summer 2010 to early 2011 (roughly 4 months) and around 6-8 months in 2011. Still doing it now.

    Started JUDO in April 2011 until May and restarted in September.

    I know how to throw but I don't know how to throw IN RANDORI!!! Either i'm so worried about getting slammed hard that I don't commit or if I DO commit, I either kick their leg trying/my arms when I do De Ashi Barai or O Uchi Gari don't push/pull properly. Even against smaller/weaker opponents I don't get thrown but I don't know how to throw them!

    The most annoying thing is when they keep their arms locked out/pushing me but even if I grab them/pull them in, my feet are miles away!!

    If I step in I either get thrown or they're too quick and step back!!!

    This was my first match against someone from another club-i'm in the blue pants. It was a draw as he couldn't hold me down for the 25 seconds and unfortunately as he was new I couldn't do any shime or kansetsu waza!

    [ame=""]Chris Randoori with Solent part 2 - YouTube[/ame]

    Same applies for wrestling classes-I can shoot in but I can't take them down!
  2. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    It's just something you have to learn through randori. Generally if you can't do it chilled out and gentle, you're doing something wrong.

    There are key points that make a big difference too. Being able to push/pull with one foot off the ground is important in a jacket grip front trip. Getting your hips on your opponent's hips is important on inside-hook leg-sweeps.

    On a shot, usually people don't close enough. You want to start from the clinch. A headsnap works great as an entry. You want to hit your opponent's waist with your shoulder just as your foot lands between his feet, then drive forward until the knee on that leg hits the mat. Then, unless your opponent doesn't have a sprawl and has ended up on his back already, the actual fight for the takedown begins and you'll have to turn the corner, sit out, work a lift, switch to a smith, stand to the clinch for a hipthrow etc.

    But the main thing at this point is to relax. Sparring intimidated isn't safe. If you're timid, you won't react naturally and can easily blow out your knee on some takedowns, and if you're being defensively snappy and jerky with your movements, you're likely to blow out your training partner's knee by wrenching into a takedown Just chill out and accept that you're going to get upside down once in a while so you can play and enjoy it.

    EDIT: One thing I'm seeing is you twisting into hipthrows with your feet apart and trying to wrench your opponent downwards. You'll find much better success if with a proper tai-otoshi or koshi guruma.
    It looks a bit like you want to do uchimata sometimes but generally you need to get a ton of lift with your thigh and then dive headfirst toward the mat, ending with a roll or similar to finish it. It's a high intensity throw and is dangerous for those who don't have a lot of experience. Usually I see people start with an uchimata and instead of finishing the throw using it to initiate some leg takedown.

    And if you're going to get facedown to hide from the pin like that, you really need to become a wizard at takedowns, armlocks and reversals from the turtle position. All you're going to be able to do with the flat belly down position is stall. If you get up to your knees there's a little more risk but you have some options to attack, so you're not just waiting on him to finally turn you over or the ref to come rescue you.

    On top of that, turnovers are much easier versus that flat, belly-down position than they are from a solid turtle because of the threats you can present from the turtle. As it is, all he has to do is catch a leg, tip you up on one shoulder, and break off the arm you stick out to base. Alternatively you may just keep your hands and elbows in, in which case he will flip and pin you. If he can leglock you, those legs become extremely vulnerable too.

    From the turtle, if he gets antsy and tries to hurry flipping you over, you can sit out, catch a single, rolling kneebar, armlock etc.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  3. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    1. Yeah thanks-the main issue is i'm either a) extremely tired by the time I takedown from all of the conditioning (wrestling) or b) I'm doing something wrong as I get in/my head by their waist and push back but it's not working

    2. If you could show me some youtube vids of attacks from tutrle it'd be great

    The main problem is that people say 'loosen up' or 'relax' in training but in randori you have to be ready to go/power them donwn and what I hate the most is when I get thrown and my head snaps back and hits the mat- I keep my chin down but people say keep it up as keeping it down is no good for throws.

    As for wrestling I give people takedowns to easy as leg takedowns hurt/shake me too much. In honesty I haven't been wrestling consistently since Apr/amy when I did 5/6 weeks (since May I only did one session before Christmas and one in Jan).
  4. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    [ame=""]Wrestler's Sit Out From Turtle Position - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Wrestling Turning The Corner for Takedown - YouTube[/ame]
    I prefer to gable grip around both knees rather than single leg here, I feel it takes a lot less intensity to work well and lends itself to passing guard better.

    [ame=""]kneebar off failed takedown - YouTube[/ame]
    In judo you may just opt to roll to escape the back-ride instead of finishing the kneelock.

    [ame=""]BJJ: Turtle Position (Sweep and Escape to Armbar/Guard) - YouTube[/ame]
  5. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    this doesn't sound too healthy, maybe you should say to one of your instructors you feel you could be doing with some more break fall training.
  6. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    You definitely need more breakfall practice then - remember to tuck your chin.

    You might also want to add some neck strengthening work into your training. Isometric neck exercises are a good place to start.
  7. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    My advice is regarding judo, I have no freestyle/greco wrestling experience from which to guide you.

    If you're worried about getting slammed then you're not comfortable enough with your breakfalls. By the way you say you hit your head it's no wonder, you're not doing them right. Take some time to work on this.

    Regarding you not being able to throw in randori, it takes a while to develop the timing and gripping to be able to transfer your knowledge of the static throw into a real-time attack. Rinse and repeat for seperate techniques. Given that you have less than a years judo experience it isn't surprising that you're not mauling people in randori, especially if your partners have any skill. I'd suggest more full tempo moving nage komi but this is really your coaches call.

    The main point to take away from this is you need better fundamentals and that'll come in time as long as you train smart.

    Good luck
  8. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member


    \Hi , You seem to be a game lad.First you need to take your time-you are too frantic.Try pacing yourself.Your posture is poor but thats expected at your level.Grip opponents lapel, and control minimum of one of his arms.Eg Left lapel/right sleeve.try and keep your head up.Do not be rigid-RELAX.In groundwork use your feet to restrain partners attempts to control you.Look for opportunity to get behind your partner[strangles].Check your own arm position, avoid exposing your armpits [keep elbows tucked close to your body[slightly wider than shoulder width -also while standing waza].Last but not least brush up on your breakfalls and concentrate on learning thoroughly the eight basic ways to break a persons posture, and study your footwork.It takes time but you have to be scientific and analyse what you are doing.Good luck . Joe
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, you need to "give" before you can "take".

    If you want to

    - spin to your right, you will need to spin to your left 1st.
    - push, you will need to pull 1st.
    - pull, you will need to push 1st.
    - ...

    This will give your opponent 2 options, either resist against you, or yield and follow you. In either cases, you can borrow his force and add into your throw.

    If you step in when your opponent is forced to step in (by your pulling), it will be much difficult for him to step back at that moment. Also if you change a bit angle. When you step in, make sure that your leading foot and your opponent's both feet are on a straight line, no matter how he will step back, his leading leg will always be in your attacking range.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  10. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    The reason I didn't grip his lapel is because I don't have too strong a grip/heard that the nearer you arm to someone, the easier it is to control them.

    That and the fact I do wrestling too so I want to be able to crossover what I learned-hence the par terre. I also watch a lot of this chap-one of my favourite fighters who I try to emulate

  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If there gripping you and you dont grip them, who do you think will win the grip fighting?
  12. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    I have the same problem re: beginner grades keeping arms locked out and mostly pushing. A tactic could be to break their grip, and keep doing until you get a better grip position, and pushing lends itself to tai otoshi (I think), not a favourite of mine but a throw is a throw. Of course I probably repeat these things myself :)
  13. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    how do you actually break the grip when they lock their arms out in front of you?
  14. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    You'd need to pick one side and quickly break grip with both hands, one underneath the wrist the other on top, then move in for your own grip, maybe a high shoulder to get more control, or it might be just the opening for ippon seoi nage. This guy has some good videos on grip breaks and grip strategy. I'm hoping to try out some next class tomorrow

    [ame=""]Kumi Kata - Basic Grip Breaks - YouTube[/ame]
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You try to break the sleeve grip first (it has more threaten to you). This can be done simply by striking at your opponent's shoulder and pull your other shoulder back at the same time. You then break the lapel grip after. At that moment, you will have the sleeve grip and your opponent will have no grip. When your opponent tries to get his grip back, you deflect his arm, obtain your 2nd lapel grip, move in, and apply your throw.

    It will always be to your advantage if you have

    - sleeve grip and your opponent has no grip.
    - both sleeve grip and lapel grip and your opponent only has sleeve grip (or lapel grip).

    Your opponent will always be one step behind you. Old saying said, "It's OK to lose in throw but it's not OK to lose in grip fight". When you lose in grip fight, you are 1/2 way to be thrown.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Judo randori = no striking

    Bro you just need more experience on the mats.

    Ask you teachers good focused questions and thank them for there answers.

    And remember skills come via sweat.
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    LOL, I believe 44 years sweating on the mats is quite enough. ;)

    "Striking push" is used when you hold on your opponent's "cross lapel" and you just "striking push" on his shoulder and quickly pull your other shoulder back. It's harder than a "push" but softer than a "strike".
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member


    Try to keep your elbows in front of your hips. When you let your elbow get behind your hip, you lose a lot of your leverage. Only time to bring your elbow behind your hips is maybe elbow strike someone behind you (edit: and also with a few specific techniques but not in general do the elbows ever go behind the hips).

    See Mifune video below, he doesn't ever bring his elbow behind his hips, but he gets one of his training partners to do so (a big guy) and the training partner cannot throw Mifune.

    [ame=""]Judo Kyuzo Mifune Randori - YouTube[/ame]

    Also try to let the technique do the work, not you. Stay relaxed and fluid.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Re: mat hours I was talking to the op.

    However using the word strike to mean push and not strike is kinda misleading no?
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    That's a valid comment. When people talk about "push", usually they use their palm. When you grab on your opponent's cross lapel, usually you are holding a fist and your fingers is closed and dig into your opponent's Gi. You are using your knucle (not your palm) and "striking push" at your opponent's shoulder.

    In Chinese, it's called 捅(Tong) which has meaning as poke, stab, stir up, touch, disclose, expose, let out, give away.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012

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