How can you feel Qi?

Or in any falsifiable terms apparently

Because of the massive body of evidence for those things. If it was an unknown compound that people were claiming could cure AIDS or cancer there would be clinical trials.

You mean lack of any scientific data.

Prove by the scientific method in repeated trials which other people can consistently reproduce. Then people will believe.

We can see, test, verify, reproduce, and concretely explain all of those things. The phenomena associated with some scientific concepts are contested at times but they are always verified or falsified through the rigours of the scientific method and only accepted after extensive testing and evidence.

 

So, like I said earlier, science has it's homework set out for itself. Don't know how you falsify conducting brain surgery with almost no anesthesia and acupuncture instead while talking to the patient. Bill Moyers did an interesting special which showed this.

 

Science doesn't go poking about blindly in the dark hoping to find things. You have to be able to concretely define the phenomenon and/or it's effects to be able to test it. George Dillman attempting to define it as electricity or a radio wave is actually a step forward in testing because you can test and see if those things are present. Defining what Qi can do is also a step forward because you can try to reproduce those effects under controlled conditions again and again.

Acupuncture working does not validate the existence of Qi any more than lightning proves the existence of Thor.

And in the case of testing acupuncture's use as an anesthetic you attempt to reproduce the results in lab animals and gather data on it working (if it does). You then create a hypothesis about how it works and test that. You keep doing that until you find a hypothesis you can verify as correct and use to reproduce the phenomenon.

 

Of course it's not arrogant to go to another country, tell their doctors that their medicine is fake and demand they prove to your satisfaction that it works.

As it's been working for centuries when Europeans were bleeding people and studying phrenology, I'm sure people will be lining up to satisfy your whims. Oh well, just like the crossbow, it'll eventually make it's way there.

The assumptions you are making are wrong from the start. The result is already there, creating hypotheses after the fact to prove something already know. It's not that simple either, as there is martial, medical, philosophical, and other aspects of qi. TCM includes pulse and tongue reading and other methods of diagnosis, as well as treatment with kampo, needling, massage, surgery, Western medicine as well.

 

That bit in bold... There is nothing wrong with that. Outright calling things fake is a little presumptuous but asking people to prove via the rigours of the scientific method that things are real is how you gain knowledge about the universe and disprove hokum.

Those things didn't stand up to the rigours of the scientific method hence we don't use them any more. We also don't sacrifice virgins to make the crops grow.

I'm not assuming anything. I am open to the possibility that Qi exists just not the probability.

All I am saying is that if you claim it exists prove it by the rigours of the scientific method.

 

Well, feel free to go to China and tell them that. I'd love to see the looks you'd get.

 

Don't make me reacquaint you with Appeal to Common Cause. But have a good night mate. I'm done with this round of Don Quixotes.

 

Like I said, if you want to go to China and yell from the Great Wall that their medicine is a placebo, feel free. It's a bit ludicrous but hey, everyone has their hobbies. I doubt many TCM doctors are concerned what you think. Healing and curing their patients is more important no doubt.

 

I suggest you read my previous post. I am not claiming it is not real or even that it is placebo. Other people, including you, are claiming it is real. All I and others are asking for is scientific evidence to back up that claim. Without that it has the same validity as any other unsupported claim.

 

Read it already, thanks. Yes, I've felt qi before, if you never have you should just leave it at that. Doubtful anyone can really understand it without experiencing it. Definitely impossible if you don't investigate it yourself. Demanding scientific proof doesn't fall into either realm. I've been in love too but if saying that requires some kind of peer reviewed report, we might as well walk around with scotch tape on our mouths.

So you've got a quandary, you can investigate for yourself or not. If you choose the latter, you will doubtlessly never know. As you said, "science" doesn't go out of it's way to investigate everything. Nor should one expect doctors to prove anything to you at your convenience and for your ingratiation. There are trained MDs in Ameica who also learn TCM, because if it didn't create results, it wouldn't still be around. The Chinese are not idiots or any more superstitious than anyone else, so to think that they would cling to something that didn't take care of their medical needs, is not only ignorant and condescending, it is also illogical and arrogant. So the claims of TCM can be easily examined, all one has to do is have the wherewithal to do so.

 

I don't, but i would never equate examples of measurable, repeatable engineering with something that has yet to be scientifically measured or studied by anyone with a respected background in a relative field, nor would i infer that a lack of belief is due to western indoctrination, and further imply superiority to others by personally not adhering to such "indoctrination".

You sound like you are being snooty about rejecting the scientific method, and are setting up a defense that for anyone to question you is a liar, lambasting the arrogance of others while maintaining your own, as it were.

 

I followed theoretical phyics in college. I'd like to know how this Qi stuff fits in which the laws of physics. I am still waiting for repeatable experiments that have take measures to eliminate the placebo effect and confirmation bias. Derren Brown did a lot of things you'd label as Qi effect, which were nevertheless just examples of NLP, persuasion, and subliminal messaging.

Convincing someone that something can be felt or experienced is easy enough, as Derren Brown proves time and time again.
Anything can be felt if you can convince the person's subconcious of it. And it fails if you can't.
That is why master Ryukerin could 'Qi' his students around like dolls, but a medium level MMA fighter stomped him into the tatatmi.

EDIT: I am not denying that a brain can be convinced to feel, or feel not. I am convinced that through the known senses that we have, our brain can be hacked and influcenced. This is not so much different as how marketing people get us to do things and buy stuff even though we may call ourselves critical thinkers. However, as soon as it gets trotted out as a physical energy, I call baloney.

 

How do you know that it has never been measured or studied? Do you read Chinese? You've been researching all the scientific studies of qi from any and all countries? Impressive. Or are you making assumptions based on your superior knowledge of not knowing what has or hasn't been researched as far as qi is concerned? Belief and experience are two very different things.

 

It has ben studied, and nothing has ever been scientifically measured in terms of mysterious energy. If it had, science and startup companies would be all over it.

 

English is pretty much the lingua franca of the modern scientific community, so a need to read Chinese is unnecessary, also, i don't believe i said it has never been studied, i assume it probably has, my contention is it has never been credibly observed by anyone who has reported it in a scientific journal of note. if you are able to provide documents to the contrary, i will read them and if necessary concede the existence of qi, however, as things stand, i feel you are continuing to attempt to maintain a position of enlightened superiority, but when questioned cannot provide anything other than further questions and sarcasm, which i can only take as a poor defense of something indefensible.

I would like to point out that before you do produce documents, read them through first, as the last time you offered me a document, i was able to use it against you to refute a major point of the argument you were making at the time.

 

We aren't talking about gullible students or magic(suggestion if you will). It is not necessary to believe in qi to feel it. Not parlour tricks or other nonsense. You want to know how physics applies, you discuss qi with a physicist who has knowledge of what qi is. If I wanted to know about aeronautical design, I probably wouldn't bring it up with school kids in art class. I'd ask for information or confirmation with someone with that kind of knowledge and experience. So asking for someone to prove something to you or explain it is a bit odd. Yes, the onus is on the speaker to provide proof blah blah blah is an old fall back argument. However, that allows the person requesting that proof to rest on their laurels as if their lack of research or interest in investigating for themselves gives them some superior argument. However, it's more often an excuse to remain in the dark(not that I'm accusing you or anyone else of that necessarily).

 

Or, if you are interested, you can find out for yourself. All you can do is say you don't know and/or you don't know if there is proof of it. Anything beyond that is overreaching. I do know more about qi than someone who has never experienced it before nor looked into Chinese/Japanese ideas/theories/research into it. The question was how an you feel qi? The obvious answer is that if you never try to find out you can't. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. No TCM doctor is necessarily trying to do so either. Data exists if you know where and how to look, just like anything else in life.

 

No, prove that qi is measurable, you said it, support your statement, or force people to assume you were lying.

 

The Great Wizard Wally is a master sorcerer, he does not produce illusions, he produces magic that rely on something something quantum physics. He will not provide any proof, you must experience his illusi- magic for yourself!

 

Actually, your logic is missing. Without proof you say it hasn't been proven to x's satisfaction, not necessarily that y was lying. You can believe what you want about qi, won't change a thing. In life knowledge and experience are gained through using our intellect and bodies, not by assuming and waiting to be spoonfed. If you have no interest in the former, the latter will bring you no closer to understanding or feeling qi.